A brazillion questions..

[bilgeboy]

Thats a reference to an old joke. If you got it...we are on the same page humor wise...

New to the page, and respect the great responses I've seen. I've read the Seloc, its great, but not really good enough.

A new to me 89 225 VRO on a custom 24 CC, nice boat, good deal. Sat for 2 years, unused.

Trial run - started right up, idled rough, but very slow and quick to overheat. I tested on freshwater lake, so I shut the motor down, and cast a line to buddy on shore who waded through the muck to get me back to the trailer (eventually).

I was concerned I roasted the engine with the brief overheat, but she looked good, and a quick compression test was in the 90 - 92 range on all six.

I figured I would start with the lower unit- replaced the water pump and t-stats 2 days ago. Today drained all the old gas, disconnected the VRO wiring harness and put in fresh fuel and oil ( one quart to 12 gallons x 2 ).

Testing today, found a nice trail of water from the tell-tale, an improvement, but was very hard to start...maybe 30 attempts before she caught. The starter gear would seem to drop off the flywheel prematurely. Lots of strange noises. Add some choke, no choke, etc, etc, etc. Then out of the blue, started nicely, idled beautifully, only ran her up to 2500 in neutral, but sounded great. Shut her down after 10 minutes. But she would not restart...again. Took her home, spark at all 6 plugs. Took the cover off the carbs just to take a look. All butter-fly's look the same...clean...and moved in unison with the throttle.

A few concerns..

The exhaust was coming from the exhaust housing instead of the prop (just above the cavitation plate), which makes me think I mucked up the gaskets on that exhaust jig during reassembly of the LU. Does this really matter?

Why so hard to start? Is the premature drop of the starter a sign of weak battery, and if so, could a weak battery cause a hard start because of a low rpm? It seemed OK, not like a car in winter kind of hard start, but maybe these engines like alot of speed to start?

Whats next to check, and any other useful advise is greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Mike

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: A brazillion questions..

i think you are in to a total tear down, cleaning, and reassembly with rebuilt kits of the carbs. weak battery always make starting harder. sitting 2 years the carbs are usually varnished up. i would try that before anything else.

 

[F_R]

Re: A brazillion questions..

A weak battery and slow cranking absolutely will cause hard or no starting. The ignition system won't produce adequate spark at below 200-300 RPM cranking speed. Get it cranking before you go tearing into anything.

 

[Theoutdoorsman]

Re: A brazillion questions..

I have to agree with tashasdaddy on this. If it were mine and I KNOW it sat for two yrs unstarted. I'd most deffinitely rebuild the carbs. You can put a good charge on the battery while your doing it. Just remember, those carbs are your ONLY insurance for proper lubrication to those cylinders. If just one isn't getting enough, you could be cranking and ruined powerhead. But then again, it'd be cranking really fast. Rebuild the carbs. It'll remove one of your questions from the equation and add some insurance to the deal. A good idea from where I'm sitting.................ALAN

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: A brazillion questions..

If the battery has wing nuts, replace them with brass, or stainless steel nuts, and lock washers.

 

[funpilot]

Re: A brazillion questions..

I don't notice water coming from my hub until after the engine starts. On the muffs with before start the water exits as you describe. But I'm not sure how you would see where the exhaust is really coming from while the lower unit is in a lake.

I'm going to vary a bit from the advice above, while certainly a carb rebuild wouldn't hurt (and clean all those passages really well, including removing the welch plugs and soaking the carbs) I think your compression is very low. I would try decarbing the engine (of course you will need to get it started to do that) and the fact that all the cylinders are approximately the same tells me the condition exists in all the cylinders. If you've already rocked some rings and scuffed the pistons and cylinder walls, you are going to have to rebuild.

Could you share your compression check procedure, and how confident you are in your gauge? Perhaps you could recheck with a borrowed gauge. Also, I wish everyone (including me) would replace fuel prior to awakening a sleeping outboard.

One last item. The VRO is either good or it isn't. I would run with it hooked up with your fuel mix. If it is using oil, I would rehook it up. It is great insurance against oil gas separation in mix, and will run cleaner then mix. In 16 years of running a VRO hard, I've never had a problem with it.

warmly,
funpilot

 

[BF]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Hiya & welcome...

one thing that caught my eye, was the rev-ing to 2500 on muffs part. Without any exhaust backpressure, 2 strokes can "runaway" when they are rev'd... Thats when carbon buildup in the cylinders get hot and act as the source of ignition instead of the spark plug. RPM's take off and can go very high, and it doesn't shut off if you turn the key off. If you diconnect the fuel, it'll keep going at very high rev's unitl the bowls are empty... Stuffing a rag in the air intake can stop it, but that can be hard to do with mutliple carbs and an air silencer.

Anyway, given that you might have a bit of a carboned / coked-up engine, I'd say you should be especially careful to not rev much above idle on muffs. I think 2500 is no good. Reving with no load doesn't tell you anything anyway.

Yes, if gas sat in it for 2 years, I'd probably pop a carb open and see if there's a varnish issue. As Alan said above, it'd be a shame if you got it running on partially clogged carbs just long enough to melt something down. And yes, if that's the gas you tried to start it on, it's not that surprising that it didn't want to go. The fact that the butterfly's look clean doesn't tell you much. You need to see whether the tiny passages that the fuel flow through (both the idle orifaces and high speed jets) are clean and free of varnish.

Good luck.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Don't count on those low compression reading's. You seldom see two guage's in agreement. It does'nt matter who made it, or what it cost. Even changing the valve stem can make a difference in the reading's.

 

[bilgeboy]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Great responses.

I am very appreciative. I know it takes time to do the thinking and typing, so I thank you all. I'm not new to boating, and am pretty good around an inboard diesel, but this is a different animal altogether. Next to a diesel, I'd say they are down-right finicky.

I'm seeing alot of thoughts around the carbs, so I called my local evinrude dealer to see if he could rebuild them. Looks like a $350 - $400 job, and won't be done until next week. I'm on a week of vacation, so I think I'll have a go at them today. He said the kits are about $18 each, and he seems like a pretty nice guy, might talk me through the job, and if I get stuck, I'll just dump the project on him next week.

I can appreciate the thoughts that a congested carb won't lubricate the engine, resulting in some expensive damage.

I'll take it easy with the RPM's, too.

I'll let you know how it goes,

Mike

 

[ezeke]

Re: A brazillion questions..

If you are going to tear the carbs down yourself, you might want to check around for the carb cleaner in the gallon cans that they sell at auto supply stores.

They come with a basket so you can throw everthing in for a good soak.

 

[Theoutdoorsman]

Re: A brazillion questions..

If your on vacation next week.......... Plenty of time to pick someones brain on here. I'm sure someone here knows your outboard every bit as well as your current mechanic. With a little help, you'll learn to do it yourself and save $$$ on future expenses. That's my moto anyhow. Kits are cheap but the labor is expensive. My advice, get hold of an OEM Service Manual for your specific model via eBay, or right here at the iboats store, before dismanteling. You'll then have a great referrence source to tackle ANY service that is required on your outboard. And when it's done, you'll know it's done right because YOU did the work. And noone, my friend, will do a better job than the one who depends on this machine to get them back to the ramp before the storm hits. I've met some pretty nice people who are more shaddy than you'd ever imagine. You can do it. And the good folks here at iboats are here to help when you get stumped. Best group of guys/gals I've had the pleasure to corespond with in my lifetime!!!!! Good luck.................. ALAN

 

[Theoutdoorsman]

Re: A brazillion questions..

( one quart to 12 gallons x 2 )

Did anyone notice this? Is this the correct mix? I thought 1 quart to 6 gallons was pretty standard. Hmmmm.........?


BTW........... That opening line was a blonde joke wasn't it?....... d

 

[BF]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Nope... he's good.

12 US gallons gas, 1 quart oil = 48:1

6 gallons gas, 1 quart oil = 24:1 and probably what you're (outdoorsman) using as the "break in" mixture after your rebuild... (Congrat's by the way) 6 gal and one pint is normal ~50:1

Of course all this is for your US gallons... 500 mL oil to 25 L fuel for us northerners.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Don't use the automotive carb cleaner's that come is 1-5 gal container's. OMC carb's have a protective sealing coat that seal's against porosity in these aluminum cast part's. That type of cleaning agent will remove this sealant.

 

[bilgeboy]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Greetings, Gentlemen!

One heck of a day for bilgeboy. I've never done that job before. A one hour drive down to the boat, pulled one carb and took it to my local ( to the boat ) evinrude guy. He told me he had the kits in stock over the phone, but as it turns out, only had two. Another 1/2 hour drive to the next dealer who had 4 more in stock. Both guys were closer to the $25 dollar mark with tax per kit. Minor ouch. Eventually got down to business, last of the 6 carbs demanded a few brews in celebration. Just getting back to Boston now.

A few disconnected comments...

1- Thanks for the continued thoughts. It means alot to me. I'm the kind of guy that stops on the highway to help, and I appreciate the help from strangers over the internet. There is little glory in it, but it sure is nice.

2- I completely agree that a boat owner is the best mechanic. Nobody loves your boat more than you, and knowing the nuts and bolts of it...no matter what your background, education, wealth, breeding, race, or religion...can save your ass in a pinch. DIY'ing is not necessarily such a great money-saver, but it makes for a better sailor. Agree with you 100% on that, Alan.


A few connected comments...


I've noticed a serious amount of oil on the outside of the engine. Everywhere. Even dripping down the engine when I change the tilt. I had no idea where it came from. Seemed to be a thin film all over, but when I took the cover off the carbs, it was really bad. Dripping off all the carbs, soaked the foam inside the carb cover.

One of the mechanics at the first shop, sold me two kits, recommended I rub the float bowl on a piece of 220 grit prior to reinstallation, as they tend to warp. "Sure", I thought, with no intention of doing that. But when I reassembled the first carb, I was stunned at the variability in the gap between the two halves. I left that one alone, but I did sand the next five, and was careful not to over-torque the screws ( not that I used a torque wrench...I just went for snug ) The other 5 looked better, but not perfect.

Are warping float bowls a big problem with these engines? I was not impressed with the engineering. They seemed a little flimsy. But I am new to this kind of thing. I was considering starting an new thread on warping float bowls, but its probably old hat, and I'm a real newb.

The carbs were generally very clean. One stuck needle valve was in rough shape, but no varnish or gunk anywere. Real clean in my novice opinion.

Anyway, thats the update. Glad I did it.

Appreciate your thoughts, guys...much obliged.

Mike

 

[iwombat]

Re: A brazillion questions..

I can't speak for outboard carbs specifically, but in all the antique engines I go through carb warping, from either the floats, flanges, or whatever is fairly common. Center-slide carbs with mounting flanges (not rubber boots) are often so overtorqued on the mounting nuts as to warp the body into an oval causing the slides to bind.

Snug, another 1/4 turn and a dab of blue loctite will go a long way toward preserving those carb bodies..

 

[G DANE]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Compression between 90 and 100 is not uncommon on those. You are usually not able to see the varnish blocking or restricting fuel flow thru the very small orifices in carb, thats why it is nessecary to soak carbs and blow thru all passages with compressed air afterwards. Usually first sign of varnished carbs is hard starting, if spark is fine, as iddle circiuts will be restricted first. The warped carb bowls are common on those. Be carefull with that carb cleaning or you might toast a good healthy engine, with the potential of 100's of hours of good relaible service ahead. Less gas is eaual to higher combustion temperature and no oil, dont do it.

 

[funpilot]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Did you have plastic or aluminum float bowls? The plastic used warped with fuel over time, especially with alcohol. I had to replace the float bowls with older aluminum ones on the 90 hp. Of course the bosses for the jets were different so they had to be replaced as well.

funpilot

 

[bilgeboy]

Re: A brazillion questions..

Composite ( plastic ) carbs.

I supposed I should have given them a good soak- didn't know that at the time. I did spray with carb cleaner, blow everything out with air. I checked the low idle and mid idle jets ( those little brass tubes ) by holding a flashlight against the carb body and looking for light right down them. They were all open after cleaning, I was in a hurry and didn't exam before cleaning.

I am at least confident that fuel will be able to pass through.

Thanks,

Mike