90 2stroke or fourstroke?

[CWCW]

I priced a G3 175 eagle today with a yamaha 2stroke carb and with a yamaha 4stroke motor. They wanted $2k more for the 4stroke motor. I understand that there is a big difference in fuel economy when comparing a 250hp 2stroke carb motor and a 250hp 4stroke motor, but is the difference in the 90hp range that big or big enough for a $2k price difference?

 

[steelespike]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Well heres my opinion,and you may get many.Yes the 4 stroke will do better on gas.It will also be somewhat smoother and quieter.It will also require more
maintenance and more complicated maintenance than a 2 srtroke.
Most of the 2 stroke maintenance can be done by the average machanic.
The 4 stroke is about 100 lbs heavier.A 250 hp will use about 25 Gallons per hour(GPH)at wide open throttle(WOT).The difference between the two measureable only with instruments.It would take many tanks to make up $2,000.not even counting maintenance schedules.I lost that your buying a 90hp.Yes the the difference is less WOT GPH will be about 9GPH with either motor.Slightly less with the 4 stroke.Again maintenance and weight is higher with a 4 stroke.4 stroke is about 370 lbs 100 lbs heavier.You might want to consider the Evinrude Etec 90hp 320 lbs DFI, direct fuel injection.In my opinion the 2 strokes will have a better hole shot and may produce a slightly higher top speed.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

i agree.

 

[JB]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Don't forget, CWCW, that in the near future carbed 2 strokes may be banned in many places, as they already are in parts of Kalifornia.

I think the dealer is trying to dump the carbed 2 stroke while it is still legal to sell them.

I would ask the dealer for a bid on a DFI 2 stroke 90, and compare that to the 4 stroke. I would not buy a carbed 2 stroke today in that size range.

 

[CWCW]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Will buying an E-tec 90 be as much as a 4stroke in this class? I completely agree with you on the maintance cause i can work on carburated engines they are not that technical.

 

[CWCW]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

JB,
There is one little problem with that. The G3 is a Yamaha owned boat brand and Yamaha doesnt offer a DFI motor on any class below 150hp. The smallest HDPI yamaha makes is a 150. And i live in Texas, Texas I would venture to say, would probably be one of the last states to ban 2 stroke motors on lakes. And if they did i think the ban would consist of no 2 stroke motors from 150hp and up. I think you will see yamaha and other manufacturers stopping the production of 2 stroke motors way before the 2stroke bans begin to occur. Yamaha still has a complete line of 2stroke motors from the bottom all the way up to 150hp on their web page. My idea would be that there would have to be a stop in manufacturing these motors for at least a 5year period before it becomes a Nation wide EPA mandate that bans 2 stroke motors on every lake. Or else companies like yamaha would have hundreds of thousands of production 2 strokes to just throw in the trash. I could see where that might get a little pricey.

 

[Bigjohn1]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to your question. To the root of it, whether or not a 4-stroke will be more cost-effective than a CLASSIC 2-stroke will depend upon amount of useage. If you boat 50-100 hours per year, forget it and go with the cheaper engine. However, with lots of use, a DFI 2-stroke or a 4-stroke can save you lots of gas.

Don't get too excited when people tell you 4-strokes are much more expensive to maintain and they require costly service. Yes, they do require more service but 80% of it is easy stuff you can readily do with a few tools and a couple of hours on a weekend.

 

[jbjennings]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Is there any way you can take a demo ride in both? If you do, I'll bet I can guess which one you pick!
JBJ

 

[ziemann]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

For me it wasn't a matter of dollars, but common sense....

I had my heart set on a new E-Tec or Nissan/ Tohatsu TLDI 90 or 115. I had previously owned a TLDI and was extremely pleased with the performance and fuel economy. 80% + of the outboards in this land of 15,000 lakes are 2 stroke and obviously not going anywhere. I could buy an E-Tec or Nissan for $8000-$9000, or buy a left over 2 stroke carb'd Johnson ('06) for $5600 new with 2 year warranty from BRP. I run probably no more than 100 hrs a year....

Additionally, I go to Canada alot to a family cabin....I can easily find virtually anyone who services outboards to work on the 4 cylinder carb'd Johnson if I can't do the work myself.... I am not so sure how available the parts and expertise would be for a TLDI or E-Tec in NW Ontario....

Obviously I bought the Johnson 2 stroke....and even after having a DFI 2 stroke before....I couldn't be happier running this old tech Johnson.

I run a high end synthetic oil in it and it seems to cut down on the smoke that I used to experience before... I troll all day. It starts cold every time. And pushes my boat faster than I care to go. I know I am bucking the trend, but I don't think I can live without a traditional 2 stroke. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Minnesota, so they aren't going anywhere any time soon.....

 

[CWCW]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

ziemann,
that sound like what im thinking. I will probably put 50 to 100 hrs on it a year and 90% of it will be during the warm spring and summer seasons. I want something that anyone anywhere can work on if i cant fix it my self. I can deal with a gummed up carb anyday or change plugs myself. And the thing i dont like about the E-tec is the fact that the closest certified tech to me is 35 miles away when there is a yamaha mechanic just 10 min down the road. I guess Hi-Tech isnt always the best option for everyone. I think that most of the people who say the 2 stroke carbs are becoming extinct are mostly from California. California is also the only state that states "this product has chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and other illnesses" on every product that contains lead or other materials that could be unhealthy if ingested. Like who is gonna take a bite out of a soft lead roof vent? haha

 

[Silvertip]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Here are some numbers and let me make it perfectly clear -- these are from Yamaha's web site and on G3 (Yamaha owned) boats.

A 90 two stroke carbed Yamaha on a Eagle 175 (1900# test weight) burned 8.5 g/hr at 5500 RPm and produced 36.5 MPH. (I question the setup)

A 90 four-stroke on an Eagle 170 (1800#) burned 8.9 g/hr at 41 mph but it was turning 5700 rpm and is a narrower and shorter boat although nearly the same weight. Advantage = 2-stroke carbed if speed is not an issue.

A 90 four-stroke on a G3 Anger 165 at 2500# burned 9.3 g/hr at 38.7 mph turning 5600 rpm. Again advantage = 2-stroke. Granted this was a heavier boat and a different hull design but I included it for reference.

Having done a great many fuel economy studies, not one of the four strokes in the mid range HP class will ever make up anywhere near the difference in purchase price by saving fuel unless they are run at very slow speeds every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Once you get over 3500 RPM the playing field levels quickly. It is a matter of physics -- it takes so much fuel to make so much HP and the technology does not make a bit of difference. As these tests prove, at WOT it simply doesn't matter. In fact in these tests the four strokes both burned more fuel than the 2-stroke.

 

[steelespike]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

What he said! Gallons per hour(GPH)is pretty much a wash except for certain very limited specific operation.The real variable is the setup and it is critical to
successful efficient operation.

 

[scoutabout]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

...I am not so sure how available the parts and expertise would be for a TLDI or E-Tec in NW Ontario......

Got exactly 1 E-Tec on our lake in middle Ontario that I've seen. That will probably start to change soon now that someone has blazed the trail. The place is lousy with Mercs. Even our Yammy is relatively rare.

 

[ziemann]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Thank you for the support guys- I thought I would meet stiff resistance by supporting the carb'd 2 stroke position given CWCW's scenario in a 90 hp range.

CWCW- I think you have answered your question.

 

[CWCW]

Re: 90 2stroke or fourstroke?

Yeah, i want to say thanks guys. This forum is so full of information. I figured the fuel efficiency on the midrange class wasnt that big of a difference between the 4 and 2 strokes. Thanks Silvertip, some of those GPH numbers are hard to understand being a newby to the whole boating thing.