'89 Force Timing marks

[mikesdad]

My Seloc ( I know, I should have bought a Clymer) book says that static timing should be set at 34' BTDC. (It specifically says 'Static Timing'.)

So, after I repaired the broken trigger arm, me and the boy ( so he could turn the key) went out and I set the timing---- and this is how I did it considering the Seloc book is so VAGUE.

Looking at the flywheel with the plugs out and grounded, and the flywheel spinning, I adjusted the trigger arm until the THIRD mark ( of three grouped together ) that are located to the left of the single mark that indicates TDC, was in line with the mark on the timing bracket.

From what I read here, that would actually be 32' BTDC.

Correct?

Ok then.

Didn't run the starter that long, maybe like 30 seconds at a time but when I put the plugs back in and tried to start it, it turned over like it had like high compression pistons in it.

Like it would hardly turn over.

This has been somewhat of an on going issue.
Since the trigger arm was broken before now, I thought maybe the starter was turning over slowly because the trigger had always been in a full advance, full throttle position.

So now I believe I have starter issues.

Agree?

Read this thread just now and that's what I'm probably gonna work on next.

forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=431379

Quite the winter project with this Force motor.

 

[jason32038]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Yep might have damaged something in the starter. You cranked it way too long. Should only do it a few seconds at a time.

 

[mikesdad]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Ok, .........maybe it wasn't 30 seconds.............maybe it was more like 8 seconds....didn't time it........doesn't matter

Had the same issue when we had it out skiing............use the starter too many times and it heats up and then turns over HARD.

Worn brushes, bad stator..............burnt windings etc etc.
A DC motor should be able to turn over with no plugs in the engine for far longer than that even if it WAS thirty seconds.

Ever had a fuel pump go bad on a truck without realizing it was the fuel pump???
Crank it over WAY longer than that and it does it if it doesn't have issues to start with.


Starter had issues before I ever laid eyes on it.

Fix one issue..........uncover another.

Should only do it a few seconds at a time.

Really?

Ha, you must not really have a FORCE motor then.

Learned how to put someone on an ignore list now too!!!
Always learning something new.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Unless I have gone senile, I think the Seloc is incorrect. I believe the timing advances a couple of degrees when running so you set static timing to 28 degrees. This would be the mark to the right of the long line in the group of three. And yes, the mark to the left is 32 degrees. The engine should be running at full throttle at 30 Degrees BTDC.

Now, this whole timing thing is a bit counter-intuitive: See, one would expect that because of the direction of rotation of the flywheel, the magnets would tend to pull the trigger a couple of degrees retarded. This would require a 32 degree setting at cranking. However, it is also possible that given the speed of rotation of the flywheel while running, that the magnetic flux would build up faster in the trigger coils, thus advancing the timing. It has been so long since I static timed an engine that I have forgotten which way it actually happens but I strongly think it is the 28 degree setting that is correct. This is the kind of thing that clutters my brain so I try one way and if it is not correct, then I reset it--no big deal.

 

[mikesdad]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

I set it at the furthest mark to the left of the three grouped together which would be 32 and that would make it advance to 34 when the engine is running at full throttle if the Clymer spec. chart is correct.
Just as a point of note, the Clymer manual has two columns on the spec. chart, max. static timing (34') and max. dynamic timing (32').

Ok good. I can always re-adjust it like you said and even if I am a few degrees off either way, it's far better than the trigger sliding back and forth in there willy nilly when the arm was broke.

Carbs, impeller, ignition and now on to the starter.

Interesting how much I've learned in the month I've owned this thing.

Oh! I know what I wanted to ask!!!
Is it actually possible to start a 4 cylinder with a pull rope?
I pulled it with a rope a half dozen when the starter wouldn't do it's job last night and was just pondering.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Yes, they can be rope started and it is usually a bit easier to pull them over than it is to yank on the three cylinder engines. On a cold start, you would need to block the choke closed and probably prime the engine. A well tuned engine will warm start just as quickly on a rope start as by using the starter.

In any case, a good stout length of rope is necessary and it should have a handle. Lawnmower starter rope is ideal. Use a piece long enough to wrap about three turns around the flywheel and have about two feet extra, brace one foot on the splashwell and yank with two hands. Make sure no one is behind you as the rope will whip them.

Since the ignition is self energising, you must pull hard enough to get the engine to turn about 300-400 RPM or not enough voltage will be generated to fire the plugs.

Worst case? Loosen the plugs enough to reduce compression. After the engine starts, warm it then shut it and tighten the plugs.

 

[mikesdad]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

I gotta laugh.
Wasn't spinning the motor too long that did that damage.
Wow, that is one worn out starter.
One of the magnets is actually broke.

Where can I get a cheap one??

Hey, on the bright side, the brushes looked good!!

 

[mikesdad]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Good info to have Frank.
I was using a pretty thick piece of rope left by the PO and every time I pulled it, the knot got stuck in the notch on the flywheel at the end of the rope.
And then it occurred to me,.....if this thing does start, I'm gonna get whipped like a rented mule by that flyin rope.

Wouldn't have thought of anyone standing behind me either.

Or loosening the plugs for that matter.

Guess I've gotten off subject going from timing marks to a worn out starter to rope starting.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Cheap starters on e-bay.J

 

[mrdibs1]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Meet me on the lake and we'll put two 89 Bayliners on the bottom where they belong. If you're still stuck on the timing, I can scan the page in my manual. It's a little better that yours on this subject I think. As for starters, I found them cheapest on e-bay.

Starters for airplanes and boats have been made the same way since Noah. Bolt one on from a Ford Escort and you'll never need another.

 

[mikesdad]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Ha, that's funny.
Mine is a Maxum but I think it's the same.
I'm too hard headed to give up.
Cleaned all the junk and broken magnet out of the housing and sanded and filed the armature (figured I had nothing to lose) and stuck it back together and back on the motor and believe it or not, it started the engine.

Timing is set.
Idle RPM is set.
Replaced squeeze together fuel line clamps with regular hose clamps.
Added an in line fuel filter.
Seems to run better on muffs at least.

Searched Ebay for starters and only came up with two for my tired old Force.
HOWEVER, strange but true, when I just put the part number into Google, I came up with this site which takes me back to Ebay.

http://www.sportslinkup.com/shop/0-616955-starter-1.html

In case anyone else is looking for a starter.

The only dilemma I have now is whether to order a new starter now or wait until spring in case I find an outboard still in production to replace this one over winter.

Hmmmmmmm............................

 

[jason32038]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Ok, .........maybe it wasn't 30 seconds.............maybe it was more like 8 seconds....didn't time it........doesn't matter

Had the same issue when we had it out skiing............use the starter too many times and it heats up and then turns over HARD.

Worn brushes, bad stator..............burnt windings etc etc.
A DC motor should be able to turn over with no plugs in the engine for far longer than that even if it WAS thirty seconds.

Ever had a fuel pump go bad on a truck without realizing it was the fuel pump???
Crank it over WAY longer than that and it does it if it doesn't have issues to start with.


Starter had issues before I ever laid eyes on it.

Fix one issue..........uncover another.



Really?

Ha, you must not really have a FORCE motor then.

Learned how to put someone on an ignore list now too!!!
Always learning something new.

These starters are sealed and heat up very fast even with plugs out. I also have a piece of magnet missing. This was my procedure...prime fuel system and move to idle start position. Pop choke 5 times...then hold and crank. Keep it up until it tries to run. Crank no longer than 3-5 seconds. Once engine attempts to run but sounds like it's going to die pop choke to keep engine running until it idles on it's own. Mine had lower compression (90's) . Maybe mine would have been easier to start if it was higher.

 

[mrdibs1]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

If it were me, that pony would be completely paralyzed before I replaced it. At least this late in the season....

 

[sidenberg]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

The Clymers manuel says static(cranking) @ 28 btdc and dynamic@30 btdc. I found another manuel on ebay that says static @ 34 btdc and dynamic @ 32 BTDC. So which is correct? For goodness sakes! Is there anyone still alive who was involved in the production of these things that knows what the heck is the proper setting?

 

[jason32038]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

Set it at 28 or 30 degrees dynamic or 26-28 static.

 

[MostlyHrmlss]

Re: '89 Force Timing marks

I feel your pain on the poor and conflicting documentation available on these engines.

For timing, I prefer TLAR specifications: That Looks About Right. Time it somewhere close to spec, go out on the water, get it nice and warm, then run it WOT, noting your speed/RPMs. Stop, advance it a little, run again and see if you get more. Stop, advance it again, see if it gets better or worse. If better, advance some more; if worse, retard enough to overcome the last two advances and repeat the cycle in the other direction. It's a lot like the way you set the idle mixture screws, but with timing instead. Assuming one minute runs and one minute to adjust, I'd be surprised if it takes more than fifteen minutes to find the 'groove.' You'll know it's advanced too far if it backfires upon throttling down abruptly.