76 Johnson 135hp.

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
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26
Bringing an older one back to life. So far new Stator, trigger, power pack, starter, solenoid. Motor will run great if it starts. With Plugs removed and cranking the engine we have good spark. With plugs installed, lower cranking speed, we have no spark. Sometimes with a jump battery we will get spark and engine will run. 2 Questions. Manual says to insure the coils do not have reverse polarity or they will need more voltage from the stator to fire. How do you check and how would it be possible to hook the coils up backwards to have reverse polarity or what polarity are they talking about? I have also ordered new battery cables in case there might be high resistance due to age. (do not think this is the problem but am running out of ideas) Have tried 2 new batteries with full charge as well as jumping with a jump start element. On the occasions we get spark the engine fires immediately and runs great.
 

McGR

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 19, 2004
Messages
654
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

Regarding your coil problems...<br /><br />I'm not sure exactly what coils the manual refers to but.<br /><br />If the sensor/trigger coils are backwards the plugs will not fire at the right time. Basically cylinders 1/3 and 2/4 will have their timing backwards. You'll still get spark bu not at the right time. Since you've stated the motor has run, this should not be your problem.<br /><br />If the charge coil (part of stator assy.) is backwards I believe the polarity required to operate the CD module will be incorrect. Again since you've been running, I doubt this is a problem.<br /><br />You'd have to try awful hard to get the ignition coils wired backwards. Basically, you'd have to extend the short ground leads and hook them up to the power pack while shorting the existing long leads to ground. Even the most novice tinkerer wouldn't do this.<br /><br />Based on the information you provided it sounds like with enough cranking speed, everything is fine. So, I would suspect the starting circuit. Your suggestion of replacing the cables is a good place to start. Basically making them out of as large a cable and keeping them as short as possible is best. You should also consider repair or replacement of the starter motor. These motors are quite simple. Most auto-electric shops can easily test and rebuild your starter if necessary. If you feel up to it, you might want to give it a once over your self to see if you can improve its performance. To do this, you can disassemble it inspect the brushes (you can sand off the ends to make sure they aren't contaminated or glazed), clean the commutator, ohm out the windings and lube the bearings. The last that may be suspect is the starter solenoid. If it is somewhat resistive, it could be robbing power from the starting circuit. This can be easily checked by running the starter directly off the battery, which basically is bypassing the solenoid completely (just be careful with the sparks that may occur - you may want to rig some sort of high current jumper that will keep sparks away from the battery and fuel). The last thing to check is all connections to the battery, solenoid, starter and block. If any one of these is questionable it will effect your cranking speed. I think covering these bases could solve your problem. I recently revived a '76 '85 hp and it wouldn't even engage the drive when I first tried to crank it. After going through the starting system, as stated, I found positive connecion from the solenoid was in bad shape. Fixing this made a huge difference.<br /><br />I hope this helps.
 

McGR

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 19, 2004
Messages
654
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

GC,<br /><br />Quickly reading your post I guess I didn't catch the part about you already replacing the starter and solenoid. That being the case, I guess cables and connections is all thats left. Again, using the largest possible gauge cables in the shortest possible lengths would be optimal. The only other thing that seems like it could be suspect would be the flywheel. Perhaps the magnets are weak? Though, I'm not quite sure how this would be checked. Maybe somone else out there could advise of a method for checking the flywheel condition.
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 19, 2003
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12,532
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

I run a 1973 135HP Evinrude and a 1976 115 Johnson, I have to use a large marine battery, fully charged, to get consistent fast cold starts.<br />If you have two matching batteries, you might want to connect them in parallel to see if it helps.<br /><br />Also the motors won't pull enough vacuum to choke properly on a cold start unless the chokes are 100% closed and synchronized. The only way that I know to check the chokes is to energize the solenoid and watch the plates to confirm that they are in fact 100% closed.
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
Messages
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

I really appreciate the replys and am chasing the cables at this time. Everything else is new with the exception of the flywheel (magnets). The manual said to check the coil polarity but the manual is for several models. As McGR pointed out it is basically impossible, even for me, to hook up one of the coils backwards. I am having 2 new battery cables made up from #2 ga wire, which is the heaviest I could get for that legnth. The current cables are the original and do show some corrosion. I tried trimming them back about 4 inches and still see the corrosion. I installed the makeshift battery connectors but had no luck. When I get the new cables I will see what happens. I do have a second battery I could hook up to see if the extra amps will make the difference. I am using a marine cranking (not deep cycle) but I think it is only 750 cranking amps. I will have to check this evening. Once again I really appreciate the help.
 

ezeke

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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

Wondered how your project is going?
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

ezeke, due to weather last evening I was not able to do anything with the boat. We had some pretty severe thunderstorms pass through. Maybe this evening I can get back to it. I appreciate your advice on the larger battery. Once I get the new cables I will be going that route. This boat has not been used since 97. I bought a new one and this one has been stored. My new son in law and daughter have adopted it and we are bringing it back to life. The cranking speed is so close that if I remove even 1 spark plug and crank it the speed is sufficient to get spark to all 4 cylinders. with all 4 plugs in there is no spark. Last week using a jump start battery would casue the cranking speed to be enough but that is not the case any longer. If replacing the cables does not resolve the problem I will be at a total loss. I trimmed a few inches off the cables and still had corrosion so I think that may be a problem. I will keep posting as I work through this.
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
Messages
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

Never seen anything like this. New starter, solenoid, battery cables, stator, trigger assembly, battery with full charge and jumper battery hooked up. Using an extra set of plugs for testing I have no spark on any cylinder with spark plugs in them. All four plug wires are removed from the plugs in the cylinder and hooked to the grounded test plugs. If I remove a plug from the cylinder I will get spark on that cylinder only. Remove all 4 plugs from the motor and all 4 test plugs will fire. Replace a plug in any cylinder and that coil will not fire the associated test plug. How in the heck does the ignition system know if a plug is in that cylinder or not? A case of lager to anyone who can solve this one for me. I am going mad. My previous post was incorrect when I stated I got spark to all 4 if I removed one plug. I only get fire to the cylinder that does not have a plug in it. The spark I do get is strong. OK who wants the beer.
 

McGR

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 19, 2004
Messages
654
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

GC:<br /><br />Here's my theory regarding the ignition system "knowing" if the plug is in or not...<br />I think that you are getting spark on the cylinder without the plug due to the lack of a compression stroke on that cylinder. I'm thinking that due to the absence of compression, the flywheel spins slightly faster during the stroke on that particular cylinder. This increased velocity induces enough voltage in the sensor coil to fire the SCR in the power pack and which ultimately causes the spark to occur. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems to me that the flywheel is the only thing left that could be causing this. Do I win the Beer??
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

I really want to give this beer away but read on:<br /><br />1.remove all 4 spark plug wires from the plugs screwed into the cylinders and connect them to an extra set of grounded plugs. For the rest of the testing all spark plug leads are connected to grounded spark plugs that are not screwed into the cylinder heads. There will be no spark at any cylinder that has a plug screwed into the head.<br /> <br />2. Remove any spark plug from any cylinder and then the associated coil will produce spark to the grounded test plug. I can not get spark from any coil that has a spark plug screwed into the associated cylinder head. If there is no plug in the cylinder head than that particular coil will produce a very hot blue spark. Keep in mind that all plug leads are connected to grounded spark plugs that are not screwed into the head.<br /> <br />3. I have not been using the ignition key/switch to do my testing however. I have been jumping the solenoid from the hot post to the small positive post with the ignition key turned on to test for spark. Once again if there is no plug in the spark plug hole for a particular cylinder that coil will produce one of the hottest sparks I have ever seen. Any cylinder that has a spark plug screwed into the head will not get spark from that coil. Does not matter if it is one or all 4 or any combination. I can not understand how the ignition system knows if a plug is in the head or just grounded to the block. The ignition switch is the only component I have not replaced or removed from the equation as of yet. I beleive that since I get spark with plugs removed from the block that the ignition switch is not at fault. I do plan on disconnecting the main wiring harness this afternoon and do more testing with the motor electrically disconnected from the controls.<br />McGR is it possible that with only 1 plug screwed into the block that the cranking rpm will slow down enough on that 1 part of the motor revolution that it will not create spark? Keep in mind a brand new fully charged battery that is still connected to a charger with a second battery hooked up in parallel during the testing. I should have plenty of cranking power. The motor has a new starter, solenoid, power pack, stator, trigger, and battery cables.
 

McGR

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 19, 2004
Messages
654
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

GC:<br /><br />I'm not sure if the revolution would slow down during a portion of the rotation. I see your point... you'd think that the flywheel would probably even things out once it got up to speed. I was just trying my best to come up with an answer to your problem (and possibly win beer). It seems like the only thing that would make sense. Maybe there is something else were both missing.
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

I have had another board member here giving advice through e-mail and I am going to check the quality of spark tomorrow. I also called tech support at CDI Electronics (rapair) and was informed that this engine is very spark sensitive and they have a power pack that addresses that sensitivity issue. Must be capable of firing the coils from a weaker stator voltage or something (It is all magic to me). They want me to try to locate a flywheel from an operating engine and give that a test first. I do not know anyone who has equipment this old and willing to take it apart so I can try it out. I will keep this forum informed as I work through this. Wonder what it costs to ship a case of beer to Wisconsin or Florida. Probably could have paid to have the motor fixed for less. Oh well a deal is a deal. Keep the suggestions rolling in.
 

oldgreybeard

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Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

removed all spark plugs from engine. Made a variable gap spark tester with bent nails. Spark will jump out to 9/16 of an inch reliably. Open the gap to more than 9/16 and the spark becomes intermittent. This is true of all coils. The spark is hot, blue, and intense. I have been around engines a lot and this is as hot a spark as I have seen. Where do I go from here. I tried placing a spark plug in the cylinder of the coil I am testing for spark and I will get no spark on that cylinder but all others will still give me 1/2 inch or more of hot spark.<br />Thanks, Glen
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

You need 300 RPM minimum to charge the coils. When the plugs are in, the load slows the RPM. You simply must have enough battery to crank at that speed.
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
Messages
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

We are off to the river to test this thing. I got it started yesterday and seems to start OK on the muffs. I do not want to say it is fixed until after a thorough workout. Will post this evening what I did when I am sure it is resolved. It has tricked me like this before and will start in the driveway but not when we get in the water. Hope good news later today.<br />Glen
 

oldgreybeard

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Jul 5, 2004
Messages
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Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

I am almost scared to say it but we had a successful outing. Did not have to tow the boat in. I do need to do a link and sync as it is rough idleing. Now for what resolved the problem. Understanding that the motor is sensitive to the initial voltage derived from the magnets in the flywheel and the stator I looked closely at the brand new stator in the engine. It had a very light coating of paint, or something, on the face of the coils. This coating was not on the old stator coils (28 years old). I very lightly sanded the surface of the stator coils and the motor has spark and started with no problem. I find it hard to beleive that such a light coating of paint would interfere with the magnetic field sensing capability of the coil. I put the old starter on and it still worked perfectly. Tried switching back to the original battery cables and it would not fire. Put the new cables on and all was well. Bottom line was removing the coating on the surface of the stator coils fixed the problem which was aggrevated by bad battery cables. Good news is I have a spare starter and solenoid for a boat that now runs. For all of you that helped me through this THANKS. How did we ever get along without support groups like this?
 

McGR

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 19, 2004
Messages
654
Re: 76 Johnson 135hp.

GC:<br /><br />I'm glad you got your motor running. I believe that paint, being a non-magnetic material, should have no effect on the performance of the stator. But hey, stranger things have happened. If it's working, it's working...
 
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