50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

[inquizito]

When I set up my motor for the summer, I checked all connections and charged the battery fully before first use; however, I noticed a slight hesitation accompanied by a sizzling or crackling sound on turning the ignition switch occasionally. Usually the ignition would fire after a few repeated attempts, but now there is no longer a crackling sound, nor any fire at all. The battery cable at the negative terminal post is charred and actually appears almost burned through, as if it has partially melted. I sanded it and retightend it, and still no fire.<br />There seems to be a starter relay and the starter as possible problems, or the circuit breaker?

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

1987 Force 507F7C (sorry, forgot to post the year)

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Any chance you reversed the leads by mistake. It only takes a second to smoke the the rectifier if that motor has one. Another possibility is if this happened after you turned the key to the start position is the red lead on the solenoid is somehow in contact with ground. You would then have a direct short across the battery which would also cause the sizzling and burnt wire. Another option could also be that your starter has a short in it and then once again when you attempted to start it the battery shorted out

 

[Bob La Londe]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Have you checked that the neutral safety switch is mounted and operating properly? I had to start my 507F90C all day one day by running a jumper cable from the battery to the starter. At the end of the day I decided to try and trace out hte problem. It turned out the neutral safety switch mounting screws had vibrated out of the side of the motor and the switch was dangling. <br /><br />P.S. If you have a good battery you could run a heavy cable from the positive post of the battery to the positive post of the starter. Be careful not to have your hands, clothes or body parts in the way of any moving parts. <br /><br /><br />

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Thank you both for your considerate, thoughtful analysis: <br /><br />Never reversed the leads, and the red wire was where it should have been (I cleaned rust from off it earlier today. If the starter simply had a short circuit within itself, would circuitous electronic transmission therefore go back to the battery ground and cause the burned wire at the battery negative terminal? I know in a car, a faulty starter solenoid (starter relay in Force application) may be bypassed and the motor will start, even when there is no response at all at the ignition switch. I should check this first, along with the starter, after recharging battery and seeing if charge had just become insufficient.<br />But with full charge before putting into waterway<br />running in a trashcan of water, did same thing-the electrical noise coming directly from engine, presumably within the starter. And I should add that the running lights functioned, but neither the automatic choke (pressing key in) nor starter would engage at all (not even a click or fizz).<br /><br />As for the neutral safety switch, I have not checked it, and appreciate being introduced to it. And a cable straight from battery positive to starter positive is a useful idea, skipping the starter relay. That might isolate the relay. <br /><br />I read on this forum that grounding to the engine block and not the starter terminal works. But I am inclined to keep things factory specs, and not too keen on bypassing solenoid switch - Rather to replace failed electronic components than rig 'em.<br /><br />I appreciate the time and effort you've taken to share your knowledge and experience with Force. <br /><br />Lastly, and as an aside, I've read on these posts that running an engine with low battery charge may damage some electrical components, and I have to wonder if I damaged the starter or its relay by going with to low a charge? And if so, have I also damaged rectifier, circuit breaker, coils? Trickle charged it to start with on 12 volts at 2 amps for 24 hrs., but sat discharged since last November, and I had no reason to keep it charged up from then to now. That'd be 6 months deep cycling to near 0. And maybe 24 hrs. charging wasn't enough for it, considering it sat another week or so before its first actual use in water.<br /><br />Thanks much for reading my ponderous post here. <br />I painfully continue in search of the true cause for the problem and appreciate any/all insights.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

First off if battery sat discharged since last november it is no good. You should recharge battery as soon as you get home. Second if the neutral interlock switch did not engage your solenoid would not engage and you would not have fried your electrical. If brushes in starter wear down to a point they can short to ground causing a short. I would disconnect the starter from the solenoid (not relay) hook up an ohm meter between both leads where starter was hooked up and turn key to start position. Ohm meter should show a short or a reading under 1 ohm.<br /><br />You should also check your rectifier to see if it was damaged however if you did not reverse the leads it should be okay.

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Thanks for your response from Minnesocold there; unfortunately, computer had been on the fritz and couldn't respond before now. I am afraid I am not electrically saavy and don't own an ohm meter but will know how to use one if I can find cheap.<br />Could that burned negative lead have happened just because I ran on low battery charge? And if I get a solid recharge on the battery, would there be any risk of damage to try to start motor up since the connection is still fairly substantial? Or do I need to have the wiring connections tested by qualified tech beforehand to avoid causing any damage or further damage?

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

You can buy a digital meter from home depot that has ohms, dc volts and ac volts for around 20 bucks. Your corroded wire was not the culprit because a corroded wire can not deliver the current needed to get that hot. If you dont know electricity you might want to consider a pro. If you rewired the harness or something on the barrior block you could do damage. My money is on the starter shorted to ground. <br /><br />I would remove battery and hook ohm meter to battery cables and run though all the key positions and see if you can find a short. This would be when ohms go down to under 3 or 4. If no go then hook battery up with meter hooked to it on dc volts. With motor unhooked you should see about 12.5 vdc. If at any time the voltage drops to say 11 volts you are sucking juice real fast and should disconnect battery or remove key. If you do not see a short or low voltage condition till you engage or try to engage starter, disconnect starter from solenoid and then try starter position again. If you are not drawing the voltage down with starter removed your problem is your starter.<br /><br />Good Luck

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Thanks for the helpful information and for reading. I charged that battery up, and it cranked again; however, it is notable that the negative connection at battery as well as the wire itself continue to become very hot. Should I simply replace the wire (at this point, the circular curvature forming the connection is broken from burning, and unless I can find just the end and replace it, it's shot)? I am thinking that an auto parts place is goingg to be cheaper than the boat parts place for a positive cable of 4', and will offer proper heavy gauge. Maybe the cable is deteriorated on inside too? And another thing, unless I was imaging it or had my wrist cocked the wrong way, I swear I felt an electrical shock through the ignition switch. And after all the damn reading on this forum, and thinking "never me", I did the unthinkable and hastiliy hooked up the battery - backwards - well, actually, only touched for a millisecond the positive cable to the negative post: With a quick spark, I did not continue to proceed, and the circuit breaker was not engaged, so maybe I got away with no problems.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

You will probably have to replace the rectifier as well. The merc number for that is FK650450(35 dollars). The cable set is around 100 bucks so good luck at autozone

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

4 Gauge Wire (starter to ground 72") for negative battery cable available at AutoZone for $4.99 ...

 

[Oldsaltydog]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Have your battery tested at an auto store (NAPA?). If it's not good, repalce it. If it's okay, put it on the ground and hook a heavy jumper cable from the positive pole to the positive stud on the starter. Take the black cable, attach it to the battery and lastly hook it to a good ground on the motor block. If the starter turns over well, you have a wiring problem, as you suggest. If the starter spins slowly or not at all, have it also tested, and you probably need to rebuild it or replace it. This is a simple way to start solving a complicated problem. (It worked for me.)

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Thanks EBG for the tip - I am going to do that test next day off. Would running fully new pos. and neg. cables differ from the test you've here proposed with heavy gauge jumper cables, since this would ensure the integrity of main cables? Or is the key finding a negative ground on the motor block different from the one where the neg. cable is intended to attach? Or does this test point to wiring problems aside from the main cables? Then there's the rectifier, solenoid, etc. etc., in addition to the starter. There seemed to be a slight crackle from the starter or near it, that indicates it may be the problem, but I also noticed that it was a low charge that enabled the starter to pop up to engage, yet not have enough power to proceed from there, merely hanging up impotently. On a stronger charge, the crackling would be much less noticeable, being of shorter duration and less noisy, and upon successive start-ups, not present at all. Well, first things first, in what you've said could be a complicated diagnosis otherwise. Thanks again...

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

One of your posts said that the motor will crank but not much. If motor cranks then there is no reason to bypass the solenoid. If you have not tested your battery at an autoparts place do so. Also if you have not replaced the burnt cable do that as well. The starter on your motor requires a lot of battery power to start. If your battery lead is corroded or fried it can not deliver enough power to the starter for it to engage and it will just overheat.

 

[Oldsaltydog]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

The advantage of using heavy jumper cables with a good battery is that the approach bypasses ALL other possible problems (bad connections, faulty solenoid, etc.) by focusing on the the starter, which is often the culprit to begin with.

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

I used heavy cables today attached to the proper battery posts, and then positive to starter, with negative to ground on engine (same as for cable): The result is immediate turnover of starter, but no crank-up, and a little crackling on successive attempts. [I think this may be due to an insubstantial ground connection, since all I could do was clip the jumper cable end to the bolt and post on the engine-side.] I did not clip negative end jumper cable onto the block ground, but just touched it, because there was sparking. Seems starter's alright, and I didn't want to cause a problem, because there were slight marks of char from hot connection - engineside negative (on the block ground). I replaced the negative, engine-side lug which had been damaged, after cutting back substantially from the damaged wire area, and it cranked well. I also had charged the battery 36 hrs., and that seemed to make all the difference. I wondered if I needed to disconnect the smaller positive cable running from the starter [to the solenoid/] before doing the jumper cable test, so the starter would be free of any possible extraneous connections, so I did so. But from reading these posts, I learned the rectifier translates positive AC generated by the stator into useable positive DC current for recharging the battery. My question is, did I disallow the translation and recharging of my batttery when I disconnected the solenoid from the starter to do the jumper cable test, due to the interconnection of the rectifier in circuit; and did I risk any damage just checking to start?<br />(I hooked it back up the way it came apart before running repaired negative, engine-side cable end).<br />Thanks for your help, and checking my post, guys. <br />This had been a tremendously helpful resource...

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

bypassing the solenoid even though it is hooked up will not damage your rectifier. Think of the solenoid as a switch which an electric charge is used to close it. Because you did not give it the 12 volts to close the switch the solenoid was never in the circuit. The only way you would have turned the solenoid on is by adding 12 volts to the neutral interlock switch while having the key in the on position. The crackling noise you mentioned could be from not having good connections from the jumper cables. The current needed for the starter is excessive and you need a lot of good contact area on you connections to allow the current it needs. I dont see how you could have damaged your rectifier because the motor did not start. You need the motor running and not hooked up to a battery to cause it any damage. So have you tried hooking everthing back up and starting it through the solenoid? If you can get the starter to crank the next step is to see if you are getting spark and gas. If starter continues to crackle when you attempt starting it could be the brushes in the starter are worn down enough where it is grounding out and causing a short. The brushes can be replaced for around 30 dollars.

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Hooked up to spec, the new cables fire off well, with an immediate startup and no crackling or hesitancy. Thanks for explaining the way it works. That corrosion and deterioration of the cable lug was presenting an impediment to current flow, making the starter even less likely to start, since it requires so much power anyway. I believe you'd mentioned the starter brushes possibly grounding out, so I'll keep that in mind for a cheaper-than-a-whole-starter fix if needed in the future (it's after all a 1987 Force motor). I was somewhat baffled when the starter didn't engage at all with the test setup jumper cable configuration, although it sparked off a couple times before that: I touched the jumper clip to the block, and instead of sparking and engaging the starter, it did nothing - and with this test, I take it, I should not have to turn the ignition key - the contact should turn it???<br />And as an aside, I have been using a silicone spray to safeguard electrical connections, and lubricate the gears on the starter, and some throttle cable connections - is this as good as WD-40? Or should I be using a special marine lubricant? There is special spray for preserving the charge/cleanliness of electrical connections, but does that stuff really do more than WD-40?<br /><br />...and lastly, if you'd suffer the unrelatedness of one further question, what's the actual origin of 'eurolarva'-humorous spin on European descent?

 

[eurolarva]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

eurolarva is a type of insect larva that resembles a very small grub worm. It is used here in Minnesota for ice fishing for small fish such as blue gills and crappies. The larva moves like a worm and it is my main bait in the winter. <br /><br />WD 40 is a good cleaner but not a very good lubricant. Its actual purpose was for water displacement hence WD. I use a special greese on my battery terminals on my car to reduce corrosion however not on my boat (Most auto parts stores sell it). My motor does not charge so I am constantly disconnecting my batteries and charging them when I get home. I am Glad to hear your motor is running.

 

[inquizito]

Re: 50 hp 507F7C starter or starter relay failure?

Thanks for the information. I guess if WD-40 displaces water, it obviously retards rust too. Well, my motor was running the day before; trying to start it up yesterday, just got fast clicking. Checking connections again, now the positive end on the battery side seems rusty and cracking, so I am putting that other lug on there today, and gave the battery another overnight 2 amp / 12 vt charge, because it had sat a week without use after the last recharge. I guess a week can take the zap out of it huh? When I lifted the battery, I noticed that pressing in on the short sides of the case, you can hear the squish of electrolyte. Is this normal, or have my internal components become flimsy? I don't press the sides hard, it was just incidental, carrying from bottom and sides. Electrolyte distilled water level is where it should be also. But if the batter were discharged or charged very lowly through the winter, could this have damaged even this marine, deep-cycle battery beyond its usefulness in being able to retain a sufficient charge for starting?<br />(Going back out to test new cable and charge, and not stopping until I get back close to the house)