35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

[tomwassmer]

I just bought a boat with a 1976 35 HP Johnson on it. It seems like the typical story where it starts skipping out of gear when more than half throttle is applied. The clutch dogg and forward gear are both new and I know it's not the shift cable because it also does it when I disconnect the cable and shift it back at the engine. If I hold it in gear it doesn't skip. My only thought is it could be a weak spring/ball mechanism but when I took it apart, it seemed to be pretty tight against the clutch dogg. Please help, I'm out of ideas!!!

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Welcome to iboats Tom!

Before we tear things asunder, check something. On the starboard side of the midsection is a little cover held on by two screws. Behind that cover is the shift rod connector. Both the upper and lower shift rods meet here. Both rods have a groove in them. When inserted into the connector, the groove in the rod should align with the bolt holes in the connector before the bolts are inserted. It is possible to put these together and not get the lower rod in far enough and cause the problem your having.

Check it out. If you remove the lower bolt in the connector, you should be able to tell if the lower rod is in far enough with a good flash light.

 

[F_R]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

You say it stays in gear if you hold it. That eliminates the first thought which would be the propeller hub. Does it come out of gear and go back in with a bang? That's dog and gear. But you have new ones in there. I don't think it is the spring detent. They worked for ages without even having them. Beats me. You are missing something in there. Maybe a linkage problem

 

[tomwassmer]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Thank you for your input. I have actually had the whole thing apart and I was thinking that same thing. I disconnected the lower and upper shift rods from one another like you said. I then shifted it into forward using a pair of pliers on the lower rod going into the lower unit. I also moved the shift arm on the side of the engine into forward and checked how the two rods would match up if they were together. They lined up exactly like they're supposed to which tells me when I shift it into forward when it's all connected up it is, in fact, going all the way into forward. I hope that made sense.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

OK, that makes sense the way you checked it...and we are sure the slots in the ends of the shift rods where in line with the holes in the connector when the bolts were put in. Those slots can get missed real easy.....d

And it still won't stay in gear.....is that correct?

Does it feel like it's going in gear if you shift it and spin the prop with your foot? You should be able to feel the detent balls popping in.

Did you by chance losen the shift lever adjustment screw?

 

[samo_ott]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Is it the original lower unit? Maybe it's a slightly different one?

 

[tomwassmer]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Yes, I am sure that the detent in the shift rod was lined up with the hole when I put the bolt back in the rod connector. I could see where that would lead to problems if it wasn't. And yes, it still pops out of gear. When I shifted it using the pliers on the outside of the "shift connector window" during my test, I could definitely feel the detent balls popping in. I felt it more carefully when I took the lower unit off and could shift it with my hand by pushing and pulling the rod itself. After the tests I have done, it really seems as though when I shift it into forward, it really is actually in (and all the way in) forward. I'm not sure where the shift lever adjustment screw is, but I don't think I touched any type of adjustment screw, esp if it was up near the shift lever on the side of the engine where the remote control cable hooks up.

There are no obvious indicators that it's not the original lower unit.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Didn't mean to second guess you Tom, just wanted to be sure we were on the right track and make sure all the obvious bases have been covered.

OK.....when you put the clutch dog in, did you notice the reference grooves in the lobes and did you orient them towards the front of the gear case?

When you installed the lower shift rod, did you run it down till it stopped and then orient the slight bend at the top of the lower shift rod forward?

The shift lever in the gear case is held in place by a pivot pin screw. You have to line up the hole in the shift lever with the pivot pin hole in the gear case and then screw in the pivot pin. Did this go OK?

 

[tomwassmer]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Please do second guess me! I'm doing something wrong and I'm dying to find out what it is!

I didn't notice any groves in the lobes themselves but there is a groove that runs around the outside diameter (maybe this is what you're talking about??) of the clutch dog. The manual I'm using (Seloc manual) said that the "groove MUST face the forward gear." That is how it is written which made it seem important so yes, that's how I did it.

The shift rod has no bends in it. It's a long shaft engine. Could that maybe be why it's straight?

The installation of the pivot pin into the shift lever in the gear case went well. I also put the two together outside the lower unit to see if there was any play between the two and they fit together perfectly.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Good to go on the reference groove.....d

OK....plan "B". Lets' assume the previous owner was having trouble with the gears jumping out and he thought adjusting the shift lever handle would fix it. With that said......

Look at the shift lever handle. You will see a screw from the side that tightens the shift lever clamp. If you look underneath the handle, you will also see another adjustment screw. Losen both screw a little and move the lever to the rear of the engine a little and retighten the screws. Shift into neutral and make sure the prop spins freely. Spin the prop and shift into forward and make sure the prop engages in forward. Do the same for reverse. In neutral, the lever should be straight up and down. If it feels good and acts better on the water, we are heading in the right direction. You should have near the same throw in both directions from neutral.

Not really sure what else to check with out tearing the whole lower unit apart again. But it sounds like you did your home work on the lower unit.

 

[tomwassmer]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Let me explain the test I did before that led me to believe I didn't have to adjust anything that had to do with the shift lever. I just want to make sure you understand what I checked for. After pulling the shift rod connection window on the side of the lower engine, I disconnected one of the bolts and separated the upper and lower rods. Then I shifted the lower unit into forward and also put the shift lever on the engine into the forward position so that the lower unit shift rod was exactly where it would want to be in forward and the upper rod was also exactly where it would want to be in forward as well. Then I observed the two rods next to each other (one of them still having the bracket on it that the other rod would normally be connected to. I could see that the position of both rods was so, that if they were connected, they would be in perfect "agreement" as to the position of first gear. Am I missing something that an adjustment of the shifter would help? My thinking behind that test was that I didn't want the upper shift rod to have a different forward position than the lower rod causing slight constant pressure on the lower rod pushing (or pulling) it out of forward.

Another test I could maybe run is take the boat out on the lake and shift it through the window on the side. That would eliminate all influences outside the lower unit. My understanding is that the spring and detent balls are what is supposed to keep it in gear. Is that correct?

Oh yea, if you have any other suggestions on the lower unit, I'm all ears. I have it apart as we speak.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Tom...after checking every thing and putting it back to gether, before connecting the shift rod connector.....put the lower unit in neutral and hold the shift lever at the motor in neutral (straight up and down) and see if the connector is close to being lined up with the slots in the shift rod.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Bump Bump Bump>

What's happening Tom?

 

[tomwassmer]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

I'm sorry, I was back at work today and just got off. That was the test I was trying to explain. The connector is exactly lined up with the slots on the shift rod.

 

[OBJ]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Hey Tom......and the shift lever on the engine is straight up and down when the shift shaft coupler is aligned.

Are the detent balls and spring hard to get in or do they just slip right in? They can be hard to get in place if you don't have the special tool for the job.

The balls should stick about half way out of the holes with the spring in place.

All thrust washer are there....should be three.

When you hold down on the shift lever to keep it in gear, does it take much pressure on the lever to do so?

 

[gattahavitnow]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

I have been lurking and watching this thread as I have recently replaced my cluthc dog in 77 35hp johnson. Sounds like you covered most everything.....is it possible you have the forward and reverse gears swapped? I didn't see where the reverse was new but the dog and forward were, and since the reverse gear isn't new and if it were in the forward gears position it could be worn causing the problem....just a thought. Good luck

 

[Skyler2]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Tom, see if there is any play in the prop shaft, as if you were pulling and pushing on the prop. My 10hp had slop brcause of a worn bushing, I found that was one the problems.
Skyler

 

[slader99]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Had a question and after searching the forums found this post was probably the most suitable place. I have a 91' Johnson 25 horse (J25RWLEIM) which is kicking out of gear. When I purchased it I ran it in a bucket and it seemed fine but on the water withn @ 1/3 throttle in FWD it kicks out of gear. Holding it in gear doesn't seem to help much and I didn't want to shread my gearcase.

Popped the gearcase apart and damn'd if the detent balls were missing. There was silicon on the gearcase which makes me think someone had it open before decided the balls weren't neccisary. While I was at it I took a look at fwd and the clutch dog, they both showed wear but it didn't seem excessive. (it looks like a dog and gear for this thing would run me over $300). I took pictures of both edges of the fwd gear and dog, there seems to be a void in the fwd gear surface, it doesn't rellay look like it was caused by wear and it seems worse in the macro pictures than it does firsthand.

I have two questions
1) Do you think this clutch dog needs to be replaced given the photo below,
2) I've heard people say to orient the side of the dog with the least wear facing the fwd gear, but the dog also has a grove around the diameter of it which I have been told needs to be facing the fwd gear.... it looks symetrical, does it matter or not?

Sorry for the essay,

Colin

 

[wilde1j]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Had a question and after searching the forums found this post was probably the most suitable place. I have a 91' Johnson 25 horse (J25RWLEIM) which is kicking out of gear. When I purchased it I ran it in a bucket and it seemed fine but on the water withn @ 1/3 throttle in FWD it kicks out of gear. Holding it in gear doesn't seem to help much and I didn't want to shread my gearcase.

Popped the gearcase apart and damn'd if the detent balls were missing. There was silicon on the gearcase which makes me think someone had it open before decided the balls weren't neccisary. While I was at it I took a look at fwd and the clutch dog, they both showed wear but it didn't seem excessive. (it looks like a dog and gear for this thing would run me over $300). I took pictures of both edges of the fwd gear and dog, there seems to be a void in the fwd gear surface, it doesn't rellay look like it was caused by wear and it seems worse in the macro pictures than it does firsthand.

I have two questions
1) Do you think this clutch dog needs to be replaced given the photo below,
2) I've heard people say to orient the side of the dog with the least wear facing the fwd gear, but the dog also has a grove around the diameter of it which I have been told needs to be facing the fwd gear.... it looks symetrical, does it matter or not?

Sorry for the essay,

Colin

Dog and gears are wasted ... get new ones. Something clearly bad was going on inside for big chunks to be missing. Not just a case a slow,gentle shifting, the primary cause of dog/gear failure. Also, you should start your own thread, not hijack one.

 

[igadget56]

Re: 35 Johnson Skipping out of Gear!

Ever find out the problem?