1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Hello all,<br /><br />I've been having a problem with my 1977 Mercury 1500 150HP inline 6. When I first take it out and after warmed up, I go to pick up speed and all I can get out of it is around 2100 RPM, even at full throttle. After about 5 - 10 minutes of this, it clears up and runs great. It runs good after that even if I kill it and let it sit for a while. At one point, after it was running good, it bogged down and almost died, but finally recovered (similar to problem that has happened before, see below).<br /><br />This is a rebuilt powerhead and didn't have these problems with it before (I do not believe this is a powerhead issue, but rather fuel or electrical). However, this spring when I took it out (before rebuilt), It ran perfect for around 30 minutes. Then, it started to cut out and loose speed. My brother was driving then, so I went back and pumped the bulb and no improvement. Choke didn't help either. It ended up dying. I messed with it for a while on the water (long trip with trolling motor back to the ramp). Never did start. I even used a squirt bottle to squirt gas through the carbs and nothing. So, that eliminated the the fuel issue. Must have been electrical. I ended up pulling the powerhead because 2 pistons had slight detonation and later found out the block was cracked. So I got another rebuilt powerhead with new block.<br /><br />Notes:<br />Compression is 120 - 130 psi on all cylinders<br />Carbs are thourouly cleaned and rebuilt with new needle/seats<br />Float levels all set correctly per manual<br />Fuel Pump is rebuilt<br />All fuel lines are new<br />New fuel filter<br />New primer bulb<br />New portable fuel tank (yes vent is open)<br />Fuel Mixture 25:1 (for break-in)<br />Good spark on all cylinders (jumps 3/8" gap)<br />Carbs all open together and fully<br />Max spark advance is set at 20 deg. BTDC<br />Primary Pickup is at 2 deg. BTDC<br />Secondary Pickup starts as soon as max spark advance is reached<br />Spark plugs are new<br />All carbs are getting fuel<br /><br />Also I just did this test. I used a timming light and adjusted the throttle/advance up until the timming pointer showed at TDC for #1 cylinder. Now I removed spark plugs and used a dial indicator to take #2 cylinder to TDC then I marked a line on the flywheel (even with the timming pointer) and marked the number 2 beside it. I did this for each cylinder. Now my thought here is I can use the timing light and it should hit the line for each cylinder. Cylinders #1 and #2 hit the line perfect, but cylinders #3 - 6 hit around 4 deg. ATDC (after top dead center). I double checked all of my marks per dial indicator and all were correct. I think they should all hit at the same point, in this case TDC.<br /><br />I think my problem is somehow electrical/ignition related. Now, all electrical was replaced with new items prior to me buying this boat. New stator, new coil, new switchbox, new wiring. I don't know about the electrical items in the distributor or the rectifier. Could something electrical, when after good and hot, start working correctly?<br /><br />Any thoughts to what may be causing this would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about this long post, but I figured a detailed description would help out in diagnosis.<br /><br />Thanks
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

IBFishing,<br /><br />Thanks for the detail. It is much appreciated by the people trying to help. Although you have posted the year of the engine, Mercs are much easier to work with if we have the serial number. Not to worry. Seeing a 3-4 degree retard on the lower cylinders is correct for these distributor engines. It was introduced because for reasons only known to Merc (and maybe some of the older in-line experts) the lower cylinders were prone to detonating, so they fixed it by retarding the timing a few degrees.<br /><br />On to your problem. Have you check the fuel pump diaphrams? if they are leaking when cold (stranger things have happened) then it could account for the problem. Fire it up and, when it is mis-behaving, using well insulated pliers, pull each plug lead in turn, the engine should drop about the same for each cylinder. If you find one or some don't, that's where you start looking.<br /><br />Chris..............
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Chris,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply. The diaphram and gaskets in the fuel pump is new. I did notice a tiny bit of fuel around the gasket on the end where the fuel inlet is, but didn't think it would fix itself once warmed up. I'll replace it soon. I'll pull the plug wires (while running) and see what the results are. I plan to take it to the lake tomorrow to run it some more.<br /><br />I'll post the serial no. tomorrow. My old block no. was 4603557.
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Chris, I did as you said and while it was running, I pulled each of the plug wires off one at a time. Each time I had a drop in RPM's until I placed the plug wire back on. Each plug had the same result except for #3. When I pulled #3 wire, nothing happened, no drop in RPM's. Now, this tells me one of two things is happening here; either I am not getting fuel to #3, or the spark isn't jumping from the spark plug to the piston. I have a spark gap tester that grounds to the block and you can adjust the gap and place the plug wire on the end. I hooked #3 wire to this tester and started the engine and it sparked correctly (3/8" gap) with no misses. So then, I took out the spark plug and placed the wire on the spark plug. With the lines I marked on the flywheel for TDC, and with the key on, I rotated the flywheel (while holding the plug close to a bolt on the block) and when my line for #3 lined up with the timming pointer, spark jumped to the bolt. So, with these results I now know that I have good plug wire, good spark plug and that it is firing at the correct time. This all leads me to believe that I am not getting fuel to #3 cylinder. I'm just curious as to how that is possible if #4 cylinder is getting fuel correctly since the middle carborator runs #3 and #4?<br /><br />Whenever I first got this rebuilt powerhead, water was getting into #3 cylinder. I tore down the powerhead and re-did all of the gaskets on the exaust plates/water jackets on the exaust side, even the innermost plate. The problem seems to be fixed, but now I'm wondering if some water could still be getting in resulting in this no-fire condition on #3?<br /><br />Any thoughts on this?<br /><br />Oh, yeah...The serial no. on this block is 4124442<br /><br />Also, fuel pump is no longer leaking.<br /><br />Thanks
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

IBFishing,<br /><br />Ok, I've had my sleep break. :D <br /><br />Suspect the plug as faulty. I have had a few plugs over the years that show good in every test, except the 'engine' test. The first thing I'd do is swap the plug with another in the engine and see if the problem stays with the plug or the cylinder.<br /><br />If it follows the plug, fantastic, one for the good guys! If it stays with the cylinder, start thinking about something different. You are right about the middle carb feeding both centre cylinders, so if 4 is running ok, then it's a good bet the problem is not the carb. Have you done a compression test?<br /><br />Chris.............
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Originally posted by achris:<br /> Suspect the plug as faulty. I have had a few plugs over the years that show good in every test, except the 'engine' test. The first thing I'd do is swap the plug with another in the engine and see if the problem stays with the plug or the cylinder.
Chris, I forgot to mention that I tried 3 different plugs.<br /><br />
Originally posted by achris:<br /> Have you done a compression test?
Yes as stated in my first post, 120 - 130 psi on all cylinders.<br /><br />
Originally posted by Eric B:<br /> Might be a reed problem. Do not run the engine until it's fixed. I had a stuck #3 reed on my old 50 hp and didn't notice until this happened. http://www.shareaproject.com/fullImages/1546.jpg <br />A cylinder with no gas is a cylinder with no lube.
Eric, Thanks for the reply. I would hate to think that it is a reed problem, but you could be right. I'll have to check it out somehow.<br /><br /><br />This is a difficult one to figure out. I've eliminated most of the possibilities.
 

Clams Canino

Commander
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,179
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Those are ten petal reeeds, unless one was actually *missing* I don't see where that could be "it" or "all of it". <br /><br />Further.... it runs good after a fashion - a missing reed wouldn't be intermittant. Try richening up the idle mix for the middle carb, #3 and #4 share that carb. Something is funny here.... because it clears up when warmed up. Sounds like something is too lean for it when cold. I'd richen the middle one by 1/2 turn and the other two by 1/4 and re-test.<br /><br />Try warming it up at 2000 for about 4 minutes before use - see if that helps - do you know what it makes at WOT yet?<br /><br />"The bogs down and dies at WOT problem" seems different and probably unrelated. Beware of fuel delivery issues on that one. Make sure the floats are per manual AND that they can open all the way when the float is down. I lost #3 AND #4 pistons when my middle carb float needle wasn't opening wide enough to keep up with WOT use. All else was fine unless you ran at WOT for over 2 minutes, the middle carb was slowly losing ground.<br /><br />And to corret Chris...... the odd numbered cylinders are retarded - because they run leaner due to gravity effect.<br /><br />-W
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Thanks CC. I was aware of a retarding but it's been a while since I spannered one of these beauties. Still love'em. Another thing worth concidering is the plastic bleed restrictor in the transfer port. Were they fitted on these engines?<br /><br />I was also thinking along the lines of the problem being only in the first 5 minutes of the day, and that if it was a serious mechanical it won't manifest like that.<br /><br />Chris..........
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Clams, Thanks for your quick response. I've been pondering this for a little while. As you know I removed the intake port cover for #3 and #4 cylinder. Ok, here is a new theory (please feel free to correct me if this isn't a possibility). I just went out and removed this cover again and the portion of the gasket in the middle section (seperating the two cylinders) was wet with fuel. With it being the #3 cylinder, if gas was running down from #3 intake port into the #4 intake port, this might account for some or all of the problem. However, I couldn't explain why it would run good after good and warm.<br /><br />As far as the "bogging out and dieing" part, it hasn't died on me, but did bog out and after I re-adjusted the fuel line, it picked back up. When it bogged out and died, that was before rebuild.<br /><br />At WOT so far it has got up to 4300 RPM, but that is probably due to the prop. I'm not sure on this as I didn't have a tach before rebuild.<br /><br />I will correct the possible problem with the gasket and see how it reacts. And if it doesn't prove successful, I will go on to carb adjustments. And I've checked the float levels and they are set to manual specs.<br /><br />Thanks
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Please, please, please get a smaller prop on immediately, or sooner! These engine are very prone to detonating pistons if they are over propped. This engine needs to be pulling 5500-6000 at WOT.
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Originally posted by achris:<br /> Please, please, please get a smaller prop on immediately, or sooner! These engine are very prone to detonating pistons if they are over propped. This engine needs to be pulling 5500-6000 at WOT.
I agree, but I have only had one good outing where it ran good and took it to full throttle. The other times I was running at lower RPM's for break-in. Also I need to get it running healthy. According to my current numbers, I would have to drop from a 21 pitch (which is currently on) to a 14 pitch prop. Does that sound right for a '77 skeeter, 16ft. bass boat?<br /><br />I'm trying to diagnose these major complications and then I think it will probably go to a shop for fine tuning.
 

Clams Canino

Commander
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,179
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Chris is right here.... if you have at least a couple/few hours on it, prop it to make at least 5500 WOT - immediately. That said, make SURE your fuel system is up to handling that test first. I suspect a lot of your problems will go away with the right prop. <br /><br />*Now* it sounds to me like it's way overpropped and can't get into it's powerband when cold but can once it's warmed up. A 17p SS is the most prop I've seen turn well on a "family runnabout", I can even use a 15 on mine and just break 6k. <br /><br />Seal that gasket up just to eliminate it as a "contributing factor".<br /><br />As for the floats... remember the manual specs mostly speak to when they close (at least in my manual)... just make sure they can OPEN all the way too. It *is* possible to have one close correctly and not open up correctly - I know this the hard way.<br /><br />-W
 

IBFishing

Seaman
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
64
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

OK then, I guess my next step would be an expensive purchase, but is worth it if it helps. But there is still the problem with #3 cylinder, so hopefully I'll get it sealed and it'll correct the problem.<br /><br />BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand :) :rolleyes: :D
 

Clams Canino

Commander
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,179
Re: 1977 1500 Bogs down for 5 min, then goes

Just hunt for used aluminum ones on Ebay.. then when you get the right pitch (I'm guessing 17) get a used SS on Ebay.<br /><br />-W
 
Top