1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

[dafox99]

I just bought a 1958 14' Texas Maid with a 1965 40hp engine. I have two questions:<br /><br />The engine is not charging the battery. From what I think I see, it has a belt-driven generator, as opposed to an alternator since there seem to be only two wires connected (no field). I pulled the cover off the electrical box on the transom, and the regulator has three connections .. one for bat, field, and arm. It seems like the regulator was designed for an alternator? I'll start tracing wires, but I think the two off the generator go to the "arm" nad "field" terminals. The "bat" is clearly going to the battery. Any good first guesses on what is broke or how to best trouble-shoot?<br /><br />Secondly, it doesn't run quite as strong as I remember (I grew up with this exact setup as a kid). I have not checked compression, but the plugs seem good, it idles very good, runs smooth, but my ear thinks this thing is running under 4,000 rpm (no tach) and about 25 - 27 mph. I believe I'm swinging a 10 3/8" by 11 pitch. Too much prop?<br /><br />Thanks

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Also ... anyone know Where I can get a tach for this motor? I think that's my next step on the power issue (in addition to a compression check)

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

You're correct, this is a generator setup. Essentially it's a common DC motor driven to produce power. The fourth, unseen terminal on that regulator is ground. The case ought to be connected somehow to the negative battery terminal.<br /><br />If you can rig up a hand drill with a socket, you can test the generator without the engine running. It will have to be spinning rather quickly before it will charge (it will actually not charge on the engine at idle). Drill must be in 'Forward'.<br /><br />Check to make sure the 4Amp and 20Amp fuses in the solenoid box are not blown and are seated. If everything looks good, spin up the generator and measure the voltage on the "Arm(ature)" "Field" and "Batt" terminals and report what you find here.<br /><br />If it's been a while, start by decarbing the engine. One or more rings may be stuck resulting in lower compression and loss of power. Make sure the linkage opens the throttle fully and the armature plate strikes it's stop. A tune-up should do it well.<br /><br />Presuming this is a manual shift outboard, 25-27mph with an 11" prop would require the engine to spin in excess of 6000 RPM. We'll need to verify those numbers somehow. Are you sure the prop is 11"? Are you sure you're going 25-27mph?<br /><br />The most cost-effective tach for these older engines is a tiny tach from tinytach.com . Contact them to find which particular one the recomend (there's one with a filter that's not on their page). The alternative is to find an old tach on ebay, one specifically for magneto ignition J/E outboards.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Well Paul,<br /><br />the only thing I know for sure is that I don't know enough yet. In no particular order:<br /><br />1. The 4 amp fuse was blown. I replaced, but don't think this fixed it. It may have, but on a flushet, and reved up a little, the ammeter didn't budge. I took pretty much everything out of that box, and did not find another fuse. where is the 20 amp fuse you referred to? I'll get a book soon, so I'm not so ignorant on this.<br /><br />2. I don't have a drill motor handy (long story). I did remove the field and armature windings at both ends and ohmed to see if I have a connection from the generator to the regulator. That seems OK. I ohmed from the field to armature on the generator .. about 19K ohms. Don't know if that helps, but it seems to indicate the windings aren't broken .. but that sounds awfully high to me. All I could do until I dig a drill out is fire up the motor on a flushette and rev a little. no voltage at all from field to armature or field to ground or armature to ground. Maybe I'm not turning enough revs .. or just a bad generator.<br /><br />3. The etching on the prop is very worn, but it seems to read 10 3/8 X 11 1/4.<br /><br />4. I honestly do not know what I'm taching or how fast I'm going .. pure guess.<br /><br />5. Thanks for the tach tip .. I'll check them out Monday!<br /><br />6. help me with the math. Many (over twenty) years ago, I was a boat mechanic for six years, and have rebuilt a fair number of these, but it's all fallen out of my head. I remember the pinion being a bit smaller than the prop gears, so, if the pinon turns once (1 rpm), the prop turns a little less .. say 0.7 rpm. If I have an 11" pitch, assuming no slippage, I moved forward 11/12 X .7 or about .64 feet when my motor turned one time. At 4500 rpm, (again, no slippage), I am going 2887 ft/min, or 32 mph. I could be all wet since I have no idea at all how much these things slip .. maybe a whole lot?<br /><br />Thanks again .. I'll try to dig out my drill. Please let me know if any of this info helps.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Ah, Paul .. one more thing:<br /><br />They tell me the carb was just rebuilt, but I'm not certain that is true. I'll pull off and check as well as checking the linkages. As I recall (no book yet) the plate on the advance hits a cam roller at a mark on the plate .. yes? I looked at the carb throat at full throttle, and it appears to be full open. It idles smooth, but needs the fast idle up a bit, otherwise it idles down very low (maybe a couple hundred). I can't remember if there is an idle adjust other than the lean/rich?<br /><br />I read on your FAQ's that only 87 octane is required. Maybe it was an old wive's tale, but in the "old" days we always filled up with premium. I just did because everyone else did. It sounds like that doesn't help?<br /><br />thanks again

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

1. Hmm, take a close look at the wiring. <br />2. That's not so good. Try measuring the resistance between the armature and ground, and then the feild and ground. Both should be pretty low.<br />3. That seems to be a mild-ish prop for that boat. Its more appropriate for heavy craft. But it's probably the choice for skiing.<br />4. Ok. <br />5. I'm working on a converter for modern tachs, but I probably won't get back to it for a few months.<br />6. I made a spreadsheet for this, but it helps to get the gear ratio right. I relied on memory and went with 12:29 when it's really 12:21. Your math looks right to me. I get 24mph at 4000 rpm (no slip) and 30mph at 5000 rpm. That sure sounds right now.<br /><br />High test gasoline isn't required for these engines. In fact, it can sometimes be harmful because it tends to coke up the engine faster due to the cooler burn. Another reason is there seems to be a lot of nasty additives in todays high-test gasolines that are really hard on the fuel system. I've seen a few cases now where an outboard has been running fine, etc, until one day the owner puts high-test in and all the fuel lines melt & the float sinks. Perhaps it's something more with our gas up here though.<br /><br />Speaking of floats, that's a good indication of whether the carb was rebuilt properly. The newer kits come with a fuel tolerant rubber tipped needle and plastic float. Old ones were metal and cork.<br /><br />For link&sync, check this out:<br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=033290#000006 <br /><br />Have you got the engine set up with remotes? If so, there may be an idle throttle stop on it. It depends on the particulair controls. Others used the throttle stop on the throttle shaft linkage. Check where the remote throttle cable mates up with the throttle shaft.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

1. I give up ... I can't find another fuse!!?? I forget the year and stuff, but there used to be a big fuse somewhere under the cowl (probably newer motors) that was just the "main fuse" .. but I think the motor wouldn't even crank. Wires are OK, but the connections are not stellar, which leads me to ..<br /><br />2. Man, did I measure wrong (or the connections were bad). there is about 50 ohms to ground for both armature and field .. and about 7 ohms between them. While this doesn't mean the generator is good, it helps me think it's maybe OK. There is a slight variance in these numbers at the box, and I found a 20 ohm resistance in the armature wire from the generator to the regulator (no doubt from the poor connections in the box). If this is a low amperage circuit, that's no big deal, but if it is high current (like charging current) it's terrible as the voltage drop is V = IR and R is 20! Every amp of charging current drops my voltage between my generator and my regulator by 20 volts. I'll clean connections, but is this a possibility, or is the armature wire some very low current excitation circuit or something?<br /><br />3. I'm new to the lingo does mild mean people typically put a higher or lower pitch on? Again, it's been YEARS since I've had a boat. We typically just propped them so we hit our manufacturer's max RPM when we were flat out and some nominal number of folks in the boat.<br /><br />4. Next time I'm out, I'll ask a couple of guys to run beside me so I can better know how fast it is running. Hope to get a tach soon.<br /><br />6. So, if I am running around 27 mph, then that should be about right then for this motor? maybe I'm worried about nothing. I guessed it was rated at 4500 .. is that right?<br /><br />THANKS for the high test tip. I was about to put 93 in it. Think I'll pass and stay with the 87.<br /><br />I'll checkt the float and needle. clearly, they put a gasket on the fuel pump, but I'm not certain about the carb. Thanks for the link/sync!<br /><br />You nailed it on the remotes. Idle set at the box! Thanks once more.<br /><br />One more problem! I changed the lower unit lube and then took it out. Just checked it .. emulsified!! Dang dang dang. I think I found a seal kit on the web. If it's not one thing ...<br /><br />Thanks so much for your help Paul .. apologies for monopolizing your time and expertise.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Oh, sorry, forgot about the 20 amp fuse! That's just for the acessory connector on the regulator box. If it's not present, the fuse is not present. Sorry about that one.<br /><br />The field coil ought to draw about 1.8 amps. The armature supplies up to around 10 amps.<br />It's possible the generator needs to be polarized. It's pretty easy to do. Just jump the battery terminal to the feild terminal on the regulator for a second. You should get a noticable swing on the ammeter by 1500rpms or so. Manual suggests grounding the field momentarily with the engine at 2000 rpm, and seeing if that causes the needle to swing.<br /><br />I ment to say that it seems like a low pitch. But if your 27mph is correct then you've probably got nothing to worry about. I just would have guessed a 12 or 13" prop. <br /><br />When you changed out the lower unit lube, did you use fresh gaskets. I ask just because it seems to be the most common cause of leaks around here. Resealing the lower unit isn't a big deal. The only real tricky spot is the shift rod o-ring. It's always something.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Cool on the fuse. One less thing to worry about.<br /><br />Great on the charging issue! I'll clean the connections since 10 Amps would drop the voltage to nothing .. then try the polarization procedure. Fingers crossed .. I'm betting this will work.<br /><br />Ah. Well, I may be guessing high on the speed. I think part of my problem is me. My last boat was a 1984 Four Winns "starter" boat. A "beginner boat" in '84 was a 16' with a 140 hp inboard. Well, those little 3 litres ran about 38 mph. I think I'm forgetting what 1958 / 40hp performance was ... my expectations probably need tweaking (instead of the motor).<br /><br />When I changed the lube, I pulled the two screws and replaced the plastic washers. Took me half an hour to get the boat parts guy to find them since they now include them with the plug. I did not replace the plugs, but they are fine. Now, this is an electric shift. Again, a bit foggy, but I remember an electric shift with coils in the front and back that pulled big plates that, in turn, pulled the dog (man .. I hated those). I believe this is the kind that has solenoids that move rods that move the clutch dog somehow. Does this kind have the o-ring you are referring to, or something else? I will say the thing sure does shift silky .. no "clunk" in either gear.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

I think what you're thinking of is the hydroelectric shift system. What you've got is the selectric shift system where a electromagnet causes a clutch spring to grab on to the prop shaft. I guess you'd have to see it.<br />There's no shift rod o-ring since there's no shift rod. One less thing to worry about. <br /><br />Those selectric shift outboards must use OMC/BRP "Premium Blend" lower unit lube to the exclusion of all others. It's thin like ATF. Regular 90 weight lube will cause the clutches to slip.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

If you have the proper manual, it will show how to hook up the generator to motor it using a 12 volt battery, and a amp meter. If the generator will motor, it will charge.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Yikes.<br /><br />These are the coils I was talking about in the front and back. All I remember about those is that those dang springs broke all the time. I remember the spring was kinda like a chinese "fingercuff" where it stretched to the magnet and then compressed around the shaft that was sort of "checked" so it would grab.<br /><br />I did use the "premium blend" that was thin .. but that was just lucky as it said to use it on the tubes. My local dealer only had two tubes and didn't plan on carrying any more.<br /><br />I don't have a manual yet .. I think it's about $32 on line. Will order this week. Going to try the polarization procedure .. and then try to motor the generator. Thanks for the tip!<br /><br />Way back when I worked at the shop, we used to pressurize the lower units after reseal. Is there such thing as a cheap pressurization kit? Ours was just a tank with a tube that had a fitting we could screw into the drain hole, and we'd pump it up to 15 - 20 psi or so. I'd hate to pull this, reseal, stab it back in, drop in the lake only to find it wasn't sealed.<br /><br />Thanks again guys.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

There sure is. Take an old tire valve stem and carve it to thread into the drain/fill plug hole. Then pressurize lightly with a bicycle pump.<br /><br />You can also use the fitting off a cheap lower unit oil fill pump. The kind that threads on to an oil bottle.<br /><br />The generator motoring test is pretty simple. Just connect the field on the generator to ground and the armature to +12v, and the generator should spin up. The regulator needs to be disconnected first though.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Great! Will keep you posted. We are moving this week (to the rented lake house), so if I come near that motor, instead of carrying things, I'll be divorced and will have to sell boat, defeating entire project.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

OK .. I'm back. I tried the "fitting off a cheap lower unit oil fill pump" method. Pressurized the LU to 20 psi for two hours. It was down to 18 - 19 psi after a couple hours, but my cheap fitting was baaarrreeellllyyy leaking.<br /><br />Put new correct lube in and new plug o-rings. After a couple days checked it and it was emulsified. A guy said it was possible it had mixed with the previous fluid and to try flushing with diesel. Well, I was at the lake and no diesel in sight, so I drained, pressure tested again (with same results)and re-filled. After running for about two hours, the prop started slipping as if the "chinese handcuff" springs weren't grabbing. drained unit again. Emulsified again.<br /><br />Evidently, my pressure system isn't catching the leak. I also put it in a tub of water and the only bubbles were from the tiny connection leak. The LU clearly has a new prop seal and sealant of some kind around the round propshaft cap, so I think it has recently been re-sealed. I don't look forward to ordering the kit and pulling apart and resealing, ESPECIALLY since it was just done, but it seems like I should. One last gasp .. any chance I'm still mixing with old fluid, and a flush and refill will help?<br /><br />Still not charging. I pulled the generator and it motored fine. Pulled regulator, and there was some rust that I cleaned off .. also cleaned all contacts. Not sure I fixed anything, but will report on next trip. thanks for any help you can offer

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

I wonder if the prop shaft or driveshaft is bent? The only way I know of checking is with a dial gauge. Not to overlook the obvious, but are you using fresh nylon fill/vent screw gaskets?<br />Sometimes it takes a while to get all the water out of the gearcase, but it shouldn't be bad. Cloudy that is rather than coffee-with-cream.<br /><br />As for the generator, have you tried polarizing it? If not, you likely just need a new regulator. One for a 1960 Ford Falcon works.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

I did buy the fresh nylon gaskets, but re-used them the second time .. OK?<br /><br />I think I'll try the diesel flush and pray before re-sealing. How long can I try this before I shell my gears?<br /><br />I don't have a dial gauge, but is I clamp something to the lower unit so that it is touching the end of the shaft and turn, I should get some indication. You'd think I'd get a vibration if this is the case?<br /><br />I did not try polarizing. I think you said I needed to be running (around 2000 rpm?) and I've had no one else to help me yet, but when I get another guy to drive, that will be next before I get the '60 falcon reg! Thanks again.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Sorry about that - the generator is polarized with the engine stopped.<br /><br />I can't imagine you would get an excessive leak from the gaskets unless they were torn or really badly crushed. If it's a bent drive/propshaft, it should be pretty badly bent for such a leak. Check for any play as well indicating a bad reverse bearing - there should be none. Another possibility is that the driveshaft or propshaft is worn or pitted excessively where the oil seals ride on them causing the case to leak only under vaccum. There's a fairly simple & inexpensive fix for that.<br />The lower unit lube can absorb quite a bit of water and still lubricate the gears and such very effectively. It's clearly not great for the gears if it's excessive but I don't think you've done any damage.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Just wanted to jump in here for a moment to add a quick test I've done in the past to check the generator if one has a electric grindwheel with a wire brush attached.<br /><br />Generator off the engine, with the pulley attached but not the thin aluminum pulley flange.<br /><br />The generator has two terminals, a field terminal and a armature terminal, one slightly smaller in diameter than the other. The smaller of the two is the field terminal.<br /><br />Using a small jumper, attach one end to the field terminal with the other end grounded to the generator itself.<br /><br />Attach the red positive lead of a volt meter to the armature terminal, the other black volt meter lead to the generator somewhere to ground it.<br /><br />With the grindwheel running, lean the generator pulley into the wire brush (no, it won't damage the pulley) so that the pulley turns fast in the normal direction (looking straight down at the pulley, that would be clockwise).<br /><br />If the generator is okay, the output will be registered on the volt meter scale. Works for me.

 

[dafox99]

Re: 1965 johnson 40 hp won't charge

Great! Will do the polarization after my "honey-do" list. I spun the draftshaft by hand. Just a visual with a clamp-do-hickey, but there is no noticeable movement off-axis. No prop-shaft play in any direction. prop shaft not pitted (at list where I can see it). What would be the inexpensive fix just in case my driveshaft is pitted?<br /><br />thanks to the wonders of teflon tape, I was able to seal my tiny connection leak and have held 15 psi for over an hour without any drop. I fiddled with the prop shaft (spun, pushed, pulled, etc.) while under pressure. I am getting close to chalking this up to the "mixed with the old emulsified fluid" theory.