16 Rebel repower

[Steve in Indiana]

What a wonderful forum!

I searched and found nothing specific to my questions below but please forgive me if this has ben covered a thousand times already...

THE SETUP:

I have a 1998 Lund 16 Rebel SS powered by a '99 Johnson 25 HP and 13" pitch prop. Generally, this has been a wonderful setup for me and was purchased together as a package for fishing in HP restricted lakes. I have since relocated and no longer really need to worry about the 25 Hp restriction.

I am planning - soon - to repower the boat with a 40 HP motor to better accomodate heavier loads (different fishing partners), my heavier rear end, and the hopefully always-full livewell. The 25 is just enough to plane the boat with two of us onboard but really could use some help. The boat is rated for a 45 max and most of the brochure pictures going back to the 80's show this boat equipped with 25-40 HP engines (as low as 15 HP shown as an example at least one year). Hull wight is listed at 542 pounds for this boat (455 w/o console). 16' length, 73" beam.

(as an aside, I also plan to convert to tiller steering and remove the console to gain a little room and suit my preferences for a tiller OB)

I am not a speed freak by any means. As long as the boat planes well and can keep the bow up in the waves I am happy. There are many occasions where the 25 just doesn't have enough fire to keep me reasonably dry. I have no GPS or speedometer, so I really have no idea how fast I am going anyway...probably 20-25mph based on what I have seen in other discussions.

I have been looking at all the new 40's out there including those from Merc, Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, Evinrude, and Tohatsu. I have no particular loyalties, although I really like the new Evinrude Etec motors with the Tohatsu/Nissan being my #2 choice (you should infer that I prefer 2S engines). So...

THE QUESTIONS:

All the new 40 4-strokes - and the Tohatsu/Nissan 2S TLDI - weigh in around 200-215 pounds (advertised weight). In this power class, the Etec is heavier at about 240 pounds. I recall older carburated 2S 40's ran about 180-200 pounds. I have no doubts the boat can handle the thrust from any of these, but has anyone teamed a Rebel with a 240-250 pound motor? My main concern is that the extra heft might upset the balance of the boat and make the bow too light or the stern sit too deeply in the water. My current 25hp weighs about 115 pounds.

AFTERTHOUGHTS:

I really like the Etec concept, design, and execution and believe in the whole "fewer moving parts" arguments for the most part. Unfortuneately by using the midsection and such from larger commercial motors 'rude made the 40's pretty hefty.

i know other options do exist...can replace the carb and exhaust on the 25 Johnson with those from a 30 to gain an extra 5 hp....I found a nice (practically mint) 2000 johnson 35 hp 3-cylinder that might be a candidate if I can find a tiller for it...I can lose weight or get new fishing buddies...never fill the livewell...etc.

although I have that Etec preference, I haven't yet commited to anything so am fully open to anything at this point.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[pallister]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Steve,
I had the exact same boat as yours until last year. In 2004 I upgraded to a 40 hp merc 4 stroke that weighed 216 lbs with power tilt and trim and it performed great. I used that setup for three years and had no problem planing and it still rode fine. I see no reason not to. As for manufacturer preference and 2 vs 4 stroke that's up to you.
cheers
Ken

 

[Steve in Indiana]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Thanks Ken.

I seriously looked at the Merc's and came close to pulling the trigger on one. Glad to hear the weight wasn't too upsetting to the boat. I love the boat and as you know it trailers very easily even behind a minivan or car (means I don't have to use my 14 mpg F250 truck to tow it). Can't imagine ever upgrading to a heavier rig unless my kids get into water skiing or something like that.

Looking back at some old literature I have, the Suzuki/Johnson 40 horse 4 strokes of 2004-today weigh in at 243 pounds which is essentially the same as the Etec I had concerns about. I have seen those installed on the boat with no problems so I think just about anything can hang on there within the proper HP range.

I put my order in on a slightly used 2007 Etec 40 today. Getting a pretty nice price and apparently the hour meter shows the engine only has about 25 hours of use on it and still 2 years of warranty left. Can't wait to get that sucker hung and get this ice off all the lakes so we can see how it performs.

My concerns really stem from the off-balance rig my dad has. He has a 93-ish tracker 17 deep V which is rated for a 90. The previous owner installed a 90hp Mariner 2S on it and it pushes the boat (and drinks fuel) like there is no tomorrow. But it does make the front end pretty light and prone to whipping in the wind when you're casting a shoreline or trying to troll. Under power the boat performs perfectly and is scary fast (almost 50 mph with one guy on board), but when you're trying to fish it makes boat control a little more busy than one would ideally prefer...hence my concerns about my situation.

I actually talked with a gent in the technical service dept at BRP about my situation (and some other questions) and he was really a great help since he had just undergone almost exactly the same situation when he repowered his Lund Laker with a 40 Etec (had a 25 just like I did). Said the boat balances fine and the only drawback he can see is that he lost most of the ability to slow troll since the motor moves too much water even at 500-600 RPM idle for such a light (430 pound) boat, this willl be the same with any 40.

My Rebel and his Laker (the old style Laker introduced in the early 90's) used the same hull and are within about 25 pounds of each other. The only difference is the interior layout...the Rebel has pedestal seats, the laker has split benches but still has a floor and livewell.

I hope I am as happy with the motor as I am with the Technical Service dept at BRP.

Thanks again for the reply and good fishing!
Steve

 

[pallister]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Steve,
Had the same problem slow trolling, so I picked up a trolling plate/planer fin combo for about 100 bucks and was able to get down to about 1 mph.
Not easy waiting for spring either. Bought a new smokercraft last year and broke my arm the last week of march... so much for the walleye opener! There's always this year...
Cheers
Ken

 

[marquette]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

hi
was just looking a some older lund forums and noticed yours. how has the 40hp etec worked out? i have a 1989 rebel with a side console that i had 40hp yamaha on. it was one of the 3 cylinder models and would idle fairly slow but still pushed the boat too fast to troll. i changed to a 30hp Honda and it will troll too slow. first motor i have ever owned that i have had to speed up to get to trolling speed. but it is a little under powered with 4 adults i the boat. i have a CMC trim and tilt and i have to lift it higher than i think i should to keep on plane. i am thinking about going back to a 40hp.

 

[Steve in Indiana]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

I couldn't be happier with the new motor! Immediate starts, no smoke, low noise with a nice sound, smooth, lots of power. Nicest running motor I have ever used.

Performance on this lightweight boat is phenomenal. The boat is rated for a 45 hp and only weighs about 500 lbs (by iteself). And, since it is the older hull design that is not a true, Deep V (flat across the bottom in the back) it planes really quickly and stays there probably down to 1/2 throttle.

I don't have any means of measuring speed at this point, but running at wide open throttle (wot) is pretty exciting and I only open it up when I want a rush. I found that even with three adults on board, two batteries, a cooler, fishing gear, 2 trolling motors, 6 gallons of gas, and a full livewell the boat pops up on plane immediately. Better yet, you I can cruise at about 2/3 throttle with that load and still roll along at a fast clip.

As I outlined in the "Merc 115 vs Etec 115" thread, I am VERY pleased with this motor. It seems to use less fuel than my old 25 hp 2-stroke and seems perfectly matched to the boat. Not at all heavy on the transom like I feared it might be and I feel very confident that I could add a small kicker if I ever felt the need (Lake Michigan horizon runs perhaps).

I have no speedometer or GPS, but top speed at wot and a with 17" pitch prop calculates out to around 38 mph. With no windsheild to duck behind, running at that speed on this tiller setup makes me hope for rainless, bug-free days!

Since everthing in life is give-and-take, there are a few minor downsides to this motor on this boat but even so I would repeat the repower in a heartbeat. They are:

1. Trolling speed in fwd is a little too fast. I haven't measured it, but even at an ultra low idle speed (I think it is 600 rpm) the 17" prop moves the boat along at about 3.5 mph or so. But this will be similar for most 40's as you have experienced (gotta have a "fast" prop to keep the wot RPM's in a safe range). Just a fact of life with a large-ish motor on a little boat and I am thinking about putting on one of the trolling plates to help.
2. The tiller handle on Etecs with electric start/power trim is pretty long. As a result I have to have my aft seat located further fwd than I would like to run this motor. Not really a "real" problem, but it does encroach into the floorspace of the boat a little bit. The rope start/manual tilt 40 Etecs have a much shorter handle. On the plus side, the handle is adjustable left/center/right/up/down and the added length makes it easy to steer even at high speed and in wind/waves. And, all the controls are on the handle too (tilt/throttle/gearshift/start/stop/keyswitch).
3. Being a 2-cylinder engine, I think the idle is a bit "lumpy" compared to what I would think a 3-cyl would do. It isn't at all rough or uncomfortable, but I imagine the Merc's/Hondas/Yamahas are a little smoother. Open it up though and it is incredibly smooth and I doubt any difference would manifest itself amoung the Etec and its competitors. I am a serious troller who puts more hours on my motors at idle speed than at wide open, and I am satisfied with the smoothness, but I think some competitors would be smoother in this HP class.

I really like the engine and would 100% without any hesitation buy another one. No doubts. But, I am fully sure I'd have liked a Merc/Yammi/Honda too had I gone that route. Granted, I got a good price on my engine which was the main influence of choosing it over something else, but it looks like (so far) all the hyperbole in the Etec advertising is actually spot on.

Evinrude just introduced the new Etec 25 and 30's on their website this week. After my experiences with this 40, I am seriously thinking about dumping my other 25 Johnson on my jon boat for a new Etec. I don't think you can beat the direct injected two stroke design for operator/maintenance friendliness.

Best wishes on YOUR repower!

Steve

 

[marquette]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

good to hear the ETEC is working out for you. it's always good to hear something actually works like the manufacturer says it will. i was afraid though that you would say a 40hp still pushes the boat a little too fast to troll. and you are right, big prop = speed = fact of life. that's why i went with the 30hp and now the fact of life is, small prop=slow top and bottom end of the speed curve.
on a side note though. i have owned a 1991 40 hp yamaha, 1994 40hp johnson and a 1998 30hp honda and i would rank them for quality: honda- 1st, johnson-2nd and yamaha-3rd. i was disappointed in the yamaha. for all the hype about their quality i just didn't see it over the johnson. and their parts were expensive to boot. dollar for dollar those mid nineties 40hp johnsons(evinrude) with trim and tilt are in my opinion one of the best buys on the market.
funny how we are discussing the nuances of repowering when the cost of repowering will cost more than the 14ft boat with a 9.9 we started out with and thought we were the captian of the Queen Mary when we could afford that.

 

[Steve in Indiana]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Yeah, then trolling speed issue is a disappointment for me but not a surprise. I knew I would be giving up go-slow abilities with the larger motor, but it was a tradeoff I was willing to work around.

I have always been happy with Johnson's/Evinrudes. Our family has had a lot of them over the years and we have never had a bad one. The only one that lived a shorter than expected life was a cousin's '86 40hp tiller, but he tortured that thing from day one and never put any maintenance into it (he was a duck hunter hauling lots of decoys in a heavy boat thru silt all the time). All the engines we have ever put in that situation didn't last long, so now they use Go-Devils and Beavertails on their boats.

If you're a Johnson guy, you might try looking for one of the 1995-2001 (I think) 3-cylinder 35hp engines. Fabulous engines, but not exactly a common sight out on the water. They were more expensive, but much more advanced, when new than the same era 40's, so they sold poorly. A 25 hp version was also offered, but instead of the typical J/E method of swapping carburators to get more power, the 25/35 3-cyls actually had different displacements.

great motors and they idle really well. I wanted one to replace my 25 for this boat, but couldn't come up with a good one. They did have some oiling issues with the built in mixer, but if you bypass that at premix your oil/gas they will run forever.

Just a thought. And, I'm not sure that extra 5 hp would get you much.

Boy, no kidding on the cost of things. I know I was quoted prices on new 40 tillers with TNT anywhere from $4100 for a Nissan TLDI to over $6k for an Etec. Finally settled on a used Etec 40 for around $3500.

I like your Queen Mary comment! I know I cut my teeth in a 12' vee bottom with a 6 hp Merc and was the happiest guy on the lake. When we got a 25 hp I thought we were really living!

Boats went the wrong way over the past few decades and continue to get bigger, faster, and heavier. I think my 16 footer is a great compromise of space, safety, and ease of handling. i can tow it easily with our Ford Escape or our minivan and can fish a weekend on a couple gallons of gas. I know dad's 17' tracker with a 90 uses an enormous amount of gas and is tough to pull behind a smaller vehicle when the roads get hilly or the winds kick up and it really doesn't have enough extra space or amenities to make up for the hassles.

I will say I do feel safer in big water with it though in high waves and wind. That extra length and taller sides just make you feel more secure.

Give and take.

Steve

 

[marquette]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

i prefer to think of people like us as trend setters using smaller boats with smaller more fuel efficient motors that can be pulled with smaller ecconomical tow vehicles. model citizens so to speak of the boating community. or just a couple of guys just not able to afford (or chose not to afford) bigger boats, the gas to operate them and the tow vehicles big boats require. but i sure like riding is someones else's bigger boat especially if they are also paying for the gas.
i just got back from a week fishing in canada where gas was $4.90-5.25 a gallon after the exchange rate was figured in. it's no wonder all the locals own 14ft boats with 9.9 or 15hp motors. they wouldn't be able to afford to fish if they didn't.

 

[ziemann]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Thanks guys for the E-Tec 40 update. Everyone I have spoken to rants about the positive traits of that motor. I have occasionally heard folks say that it does vibrate a bit (very very minor) at idle- of course I would expect that out of a 2 cylinder.

It is not surprising that you would idle pretty fast given how light that Lund is- BUT, I think you are a bit high on your troll speed. I would check it with a hand held GPS to confirm. I would think you would be more around 2.5 mph at idle with that set up... 2.5 mph is still too fast if you are trolling for walleye, but a bit easier to manage. You can always use a sock to slow you, a trolling plate, or even I have seen people run electric trolling motors in reverse to counteract the forward motion of the gas outboard....

I agree with you both- people are going to be more inclined to buy smaller aluminum boats that are easy to tow- with matching outboards that are more economical to run.

That Lund with the E-Tec is about as good of a set up as exists....

Thanks for the update guys!

 

[Steve in Indiana]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

You might be right about my estimation of the trolling speed...it could be closer to 2.5 but I don't yet have the paddlewheel from the locator mounted to verify. It is too fast though for my purposes but does work for some crankbaits. But again, not unexpected. I did buy a drift sock this year, but haven't deployed it yet.

There is a definate "shake" at idle, but it isn't that bad. Probably about the same as my old 25 but better than the old 2-cyl 40's. It smoothes out quickly though once the engine exits the "stratified" combustion mode (I have no idea what that means).

The actual sound the Etecs make at full blast is very pleasing and quite different than a 4 stroke. I'm not saying that they are quieter, but the actual noise sounds "better" to me - more like an electric motor than a boat engine (I wish there was a way of explaining that better). At idle, all you hear are the injectors ticking. pretty cool and if I wasn't holding on to a tiller handle I'd bet I'd catch myself "restarting" an already running engine!

Once I figure out the rest of my rigging on the back of this thing - namely the exact location of the transom trolling motor - I am planning to get a set of Wave Wackers on there. I don't take that much water over the transom when backtrolling, but that occasional big splash on a cold day kind of sucks.

And, let's face it - Wave Whackers make you look like you know what you're doing! And in my case, illusion is part of the battle...

These Rebels were really a great bread and butter boat for Lund. Certainly the bigger boats were better profit makers, but I know you see hundreds of these things when you travel the IL/WI/MN/MI regions. behind a half ton truck you barely even know they are there. And they defintately don't overwhelm smaller vehicles either.

I once saw one in WI (around Madison) being towed by a VW Jetta TDI diesel! (For those unfamiliar, those little diesels were only 1.9L and generated a measly 90 HP. But they get 50 mpg plus on the road and actually generate more torque than some V6 gas engines.) He was probably still getting close to 40 mpg with that car even with the boat attached. I would be a little nervous with that setup on a slippery ramp though!

The Four Stroke/DI Two stroke revolution really has improved everyone's fuel economy so much I think the new "baseline" for motor size will be larger than before (remember the days when anything bigger than a 25 was only used on a Ski boat?), but the trend has got to head the other way at some point. We're not all tournement fishermen who need to haul along the all the merchandise in the Bass Pro catalog when we fish.

I have heard that in tough times everyone tightens their belt a little bit, but - strangely - one of the last things we give up is our hobbies. There will still be money spent on new boats, but I think you're right that the trend will be to smaller/lighter stuff. Has to be to be in synch with smaller vehicles that will certainly be coming in the next few years.

Perhaps it is the engineer in me, but I have always been one of those wierdos who likes to consider efficiency when I buy something. There is just something elegant about using a product that is designed and sized exactly right to get the required job done with a minimum of overkill. That job might be mowing the grass with an 8hp lawn tractor or puttering around the lake in a reasonably sized vessel for my requirements, but I tend to try and get by as small as possible when possible.

Funny things is - although I'm not rich - I can probably afford all but the biggest of the Lunds in the 2008 catalog. But I just don't see the need for me to have a boat any larger than I do for the fishing and lakes I go on. Granted, if my kids grow up and become champion water skiers (doubtful since I am not blessed with any athletic prowess whatsoever) I might need to re-address my watercraft situation, but I just don't have that desire or need right now.

My personal favorite in their current lineup would be the 1625 Classic. About the same size as my Rebel (3" wider, 5" deeper) but about 125 pounds heavier. I doubt a 25 HP would have a chance on that rig! I think they run about $13.5k with a 40 Merc Tiller.

If you were to look back into the late 1980's, early 1990's boat brochures (including Lund), the lineup of boats was certainly much smaller and there are even references to making boats easy to tow by smaller vehicles. Cheap gas up until the last few years got us out of the habit of not supersizing everything we own.

I have fished out of a 2025 Pro-V, and it was one heckuva solid boat. I think 4 people could stand on the gunnel on one side and that sucker would not list at all. But the guy who owns it says it is an appreciable load even on his F350 diesel pickup...especially if he has the 55 gallon gas tank topped off.

I'm not immune to that supersizing either. I do own a 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup that drinks gas like there is no tomorrow - even though I deliberately ordered the puny 4.6L V8 in the thing instead of opting for the 5.4 which was only about $385 more expensive. But I have been (mostly) good about only using it when I need to do something that requires a truck. In fact, since September of 2003 - when I got serious about not wasting too much fuel - I have put only about 5000 miles on the thing.

You might laugh, but when I decided to repower the boat I looked pretty hard for a Yanmar 36 HP diesel outboard. Talk about a needle in a haystack (in the US they don't meet current emissions regs) but they are built to run thousands of hours and use very little fuel. They turn up once in a while (also the 27 hp version) but tend to be either completely used up or bring an enormous price. No doubt I'd have had the only diesel Rebel out there!

Steve

 

[ziemann]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

Great post, Steve.

If you ever find that needle in a haystack, please post pictures.... A Yanmar on a Lund will definately draw a collective groan from the rest of us Lund faithful!

 

[marquette]

Re: 16 Rebel repower

earlier this year when i was looking for a 25-35hp outboard i saw a kerosene powered suzuki or spirit listed on ebay from a guy in iowa. it was from sometime in the 1980's. but if you really have your heart set on a diesel outboard OMC/BRP makes one. i saw it at the sports show in minneapolis last year. in fact it will run on gas, diesel, kerosene, charcoal lighter, jack daniels, vodka or anything that will burn. they had it on display at he factory booth. it's made for the navy seals. it also had full closure valves so they could take it under water to where ever they were going then bring it to the surface open the valeves pull the rope and away they could go. it also has a silent exhaust and enclosed prop for less sonar detection. just in case you want to sneak back to the dock so the wife won't know you have been out fishing late. so you could have one today with a couple of phone calls to BRP and a lot of money unless you know someone in a forgien government that can buy you one for a subsidized price of pennies on the dollar to what our military pays for it.