GPS question

mattttt25

Commander
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Sep 29, 2002
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2,661
Re: GPS question

well, according to the folks at the naval observatory we met today, it's 4 dimensions- longitude, latitude, elevation, and TIME.
 

Drowned Rat

Captain
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Jan 20, 2004
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3,070
Re: GPS question

I don't want to argue with the folks at the naval observatory, but isn't time a 4th dimension only if you can travel through it. You know, time travel. Einstein thought it was possible, but wasn't able to prove it. No one has.<br /><br />Maybe my GPS is a time machine in cognito.
 

acc

Seaman
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
59
Re: GPS question

WOW this has become a religious argument.....<br /><br />But I'm compelled to mention that GPS is NOT 'dead on accurate'.....At low speeds, the angle function to your target location is the first to suffer....Next, the speed function suffers....Also errors are a function of the number of tracked signals and your geographical relationship to them....<br /><br />You can calculate or plot the error of a given read and the distance travelled between reads and see the errors in bearing and speed....
 

ae708

Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 17, 2002
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591
Re: GPS question

Ain't it amazing how a simple question can stir up such a s**t storm? This is such a fun place :)
 

kalan2000

Seaman Apprentice
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Jan 5, 2003
Messages
43
Re: GPS question

I fly with GPS extensively in my job certifying navigation systems for aviation use. Some of our GPS units are capable of fixing our position in 3 dimensions with reasonable accuracy, but not accurate enough to safely descend close to the ground without some sort of augmentation. One method of augmentation is to use barometric altimeter info to assist in fixing our position in the vertical plane (altitude). Another method is to use the WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) satellites which correct the GPS positioning. This results in impressive accuracy to within 1 meter. With this level of accuracy, we are able to fly accurate lateral and vertical navigation descending to a point only a couple hundred feet above the ground through the weather using ONLY GPS positioning. If certified, the Local Area Augmentation System (LAAS), a differential correction system, will provide even greater accuracy than we get today from WAAS. <br /><br />My Garmin GPS Map76S uses WAAS for 3D positioning. And, yes, it knows your speed in the vertical plane as well as lateral plane. <br /><br />I hope this helps.<br /><br />Kalan
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Dec 19, 2003
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701
Re: GPS question

I think I know a couple of the sources of confusion here, might be right, might be wrong, 50/50 chance either way.<br /><br />First things first, Sloopy, the GPSMap-76S you have is a wonderful machine in that it has both WAAS and a barametric altimeter built into it. As the fellows here who are pilot know full well the way to calibrate a your altimeter is to know the current barimetric pressure, or, as is so common on private aircraft to simply set for the known altitude before takeoff and the pressure will take care of itself - but that is getting away from the point.<br /><br />I saw a mention above about how many reference points are needed to properly triangulate a position, and much of the discussion seemed to follow from that. It is the inherent inaccuracy in the argument. GPS doesn't triangulate anything.<br /><br />The notion of triangulation, as used here, comes as much as anything from the old radio direction finding location method. Simply put you used a very directional antenna to show you the direction from which several radio signals were being received. Using that method you'd operate on one of two ways. In one you would know where the transmitting stations were located, and commercial radio stations could be used for that purpose, and using your very directional antenna you found your relative bearing from several of them. You drew the lines on the map. If you had one station all you knew was that you were somewhere on a line, and you didn't even know which end of the line you were on. If you could receive a second station then you could plot intersecting lines, and that would give you a much better idea of where you were. If you were lucky enough to have three stations you could put down three lines and what you would get would be a little triangle on the map, and you could safely assume that you were located in the middle of that little triangle. Hence the term triangulation. In each case you were working to determine your positon on a line and it made no difference at all how far away you were from any of the three, or more, radio statons.<br /><br />GPS doesn't work that way at all. For one thing the transmitting stations are always moving relative to the receiving station. That alone means that there is absolutly no way to be able to triangulate anything. Nope, with GPS what is being measure is time delays from a know location at a fixed point in time. What you get when you visualize time delays is not nice straight lines, as you got with the radio signals, but instead you get spheres of a size dictated by the speed of the radio signal and its distance from the emitting source. If you have two of these spheres - which is to say you are receiving signals from two satellites - there will be one set of points in space where their intersecton will define circles. If you toss a third satellite into the mix you get something entirely different, you get two sets of points in space where an intersection of all three time delayed spheres can exist. it doesn't make a hoot in hell if those two points are on the earth's surface, above it, or below it. If you add the 4th bird to the picture you add accuracy, but not additional capability.<br /><br />So there are the basic differences. To triangulate, as we used to do with radio, you use direction and straight lines. A GPS, on the other hand, uses time delays instead of direction and uses spheres rather than lines. To compare the two beyond that is generally an exercise in futility.<br /><br />A GPS measures distance and speed by using its memory. It simply remembers where it is at an instant and then compares that to where it is at some other instant. Its very accurate internal clock is used in the comparison but the comparison is between two points, no matter where they are located - once again, on the earth's surface, below it, or above it, it makes no difference at all to the GPS. The GPS simply sees that it was at one point at some time in the past, it is now at some other point, and it took some time to get there (we're far to large to act like electrons in quantum mechanics). The calculation is easy from there, but the point is that its only the distance, not the relationship to the earth (which has no bearing at all on the calculation) and the time that make any difference. So elevation has absolutly no effect on the computation of speed. At least not for a GPS.<br /><br />If you were to go back to the Radio Direction finding example then elevation would indeed have an effect on speed, but even by the advent of LORAN-C as the primary means of location determination elevation lost any meaning on the calculation.<br /><br />Pretty straight forward actually.<br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: GPS question

Thom – my handheld MicroLogic has the choice of applications in the setup menu. I just presumed all handheld GPS would have this feature. They should! My fix mount ICOM has a similar feature. From the ICOM’s user manual:<br /><br /> “In the manual mode, the altitude is input into the first NAV screen, and is never changed. In auto mode, it is computed whenever it is available for navigation.<br /><br /> For a boat operating at a fixed altitude, the computed lat/lon are slightly more stable and accurate if the ALT MODE is manual." <br /><br />I believe it is the same for my Simrad.<br /><br />EDIT: now that this has been brought up…I don’t remember altitude being a function of my little Furuno GPS?!?
 

sloopy

Commander
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Jul 12, 2002
Messages
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Re: GPS question

Wow.... All I wanted to point out was that a GPS does provide information on altitude AND that it takes four sats to provide altitude. <br /><br />Thom, Using the GPS to calibrate the altimeter on my 76s is just one of three ways to do it.
 

mattttt25

Commander
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Sep 29, 2002
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2,661
Re: GPS question

thom, great post. you explain it well. another area i think caused confusion is what people mean when they say gps. gps is a system. but gps to some is whatever piece of equipment they are using to interpret or "use" gps. if we're talking the system, your description is right on. but for some people, their equipment only works in 2 dimensions. the equipment figures out best where they are and plots it on a 2 dimensional lat/long grid. so if they go up and down, they get zero speed. if their equipment can display 3 dimensions, then they can display speed. like you said, pretty easy.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Mar 25, 2001
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45,907
Re: GPS question

Excellent post, Thom.<br /><br />One thing that nobody has mentioned about the GPS calculated and displayed altitude is that it is altitude above sea level and bears no relationship to the ground. Without including the ground altitude in calculations (which can be supplied by a calibrated barometric altimeter or by a radar altimeter) an aircraft wouldn't,know its relative, or above ground, altitude. That could well cause what Drowned Rat mentioned. . .flying into the earth.<br /><br />Systrems equipped with barometric altimeters (calibrated to the locale) interfaced to the unit can display relative altitude.
 

sloopy

Commander
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Jul 12, 2002
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2,999
Re: GPS question

If I remember correctly my GArmin 76s came with booklet that had a timeline about the creation of the gps, Pictures of satellite, info on how the GPS system works and a bunch of other crap. If I can find it I will post it here.
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: GPS question

Sorry Guys (and Gals) - But I just couldnt let this topic go without putting my 2 cents worth in - I think that im going to break the bank with this post though.<br /><br />I have noticed a number of errors and misconceptions arising through the course of this debate - to which I hope I can help.<br /><br />Myth 1: GPS uses triangulation. Thom clarified this to some extent. As the name suggests triangulation uses angles. This term actually came about from the area of Surveying when they used to map and measure long distances my measuring the angles between known points. The cadastral systems (land tenure) of almost every developed country in the world was established using this method. However, the GPS receiver does not measure angles (see myth2). A more correct term is trilateration -which means to use distances to determine position (as thom sort of pointed out)<br /><br />Myth 2:GPS measures ranges. Sort of correct. Its actually measures what is known as a pseudorange... what the hell is this you ask?? - well its a range that isnt it really a range... why?? because what the GPS actually measures is a timing signal. the satellite sends out a signal saying this is were i am, at this time. The receiver records this and then tries to calculate the distance between it and the satellite by estimating the time taken for the signal to propagate through the atmosphere to the receiver (using the speed of light gives distance) . Only problem is that the clock inside the receiver isnt synchronised with the clock onboad the sat - so you dont know the time it was sent in relation to the GPS clock. Myth2b GPS has an atomic clock - true for the satellite - but not true for your $200 GPS receiver (not surprising really given that these probably cost hundreds of thousands of $$$ and are quite large) therefore all satellite clocks can be considered to be synchronised together, but not with your receiver. This is where this mysterious 4th satellite requirement comes in..... to determine 3D position, you need one observable for each dimension, PLUS one to determine the receiver clock error (hence you arent measuring for time but solving for a clock error). This isnt strictly true either - but for this discussion, lets leave it there... For 2D position you need 3 sats - one for lat, one for long, and one for the receiver clock error. <br /><br />Myth3: GPS measures position. Not correct - see myth 2. GPS measures pseudoranges and calculates position... how does it do that?? well if you have only 4 satellites, then you can sort of map this onto the three dimensions using the intersecting circles approach, given that you can first solve for the receiver clock error (using Myth1). If you have more than 4 sats, what happens to the extra measurements?? Well theres a process in mathematics called least squares estimation. technically speaking this is used when you have an overdetermined system of equations (more observations than unknowns) This is used to put all the measurements in a big pot - stir em up and then calculate the position more positively (correctly)<br /><br />Myth4: Altitude and GPS. Yes GPS can be used to estimate height. all it is is one equation to solve for in the mixing pot - lat, long, and height. In fact - GPS computations are usually calculated in cartesian coordinates and then converted to lat, long, height. Cartesian coords are like map coordinates in 3 dimensions, but centred at the centre of the earth (sort of). Which gets me on to my next point about height (are you bored yet??? - maybe i should write a book instead of taking up bandwidth on the net...) GPS height is not related to sea level at all!!! All base computations relating GPS are conducted in reference to WGS84. What exactly is that?? Well all it is is a 3 dimensional ellise that approximates the surface of the earth. some places it will fit, some places it wont. Here down in australia - it doesnt fit too well for height - that is, it doesnt represent sea level here at all well. Sea level isnt the same across the entire world believe it or not.... trust me on that one. <br /><br />Myth5: GPS doesnt estimate height well. this one is actually true. It has to do with something called dilution of precision (DOP) which is typically worse in height than in horizontal position. Its to do with the geometry of the solution. The rule of thumb is that height error is usually 1.5-2 times worse than the horizontal position error. so if your horizontal position is good to 10 metres, then your height with be good to say 20 metres.<br /><br />I think I might leave it there for now (havent got on to velocity yet) as i am sure that those who havent fallen asleep by now are pi$$ed off with what i've written. ;) Please dont take this as criticism if I have said what you have said is incorrect - Im just trying to set the record straight. If people think this is total BS, im happy to debate it ;) <br /><br />If people do want me to go on, let me know and I can elaborate on more things where I can.<br /><br />Cheers and have a good weekend!<br /><br />Troy
 

poolshark38759

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
155
Re: GPS question

i GPS is so inaccurate then why can i have one hooked into my tractor or combine or sprayer on the farm and set to literally guide it thru the field with less than 1/2" overlap and it keep perfectly straight and paralell rows in going over hills at any angle... it can and does... <br /><br />but that is just my $.02 worth.. take it "cum grand sallis"...<br /> :) :cool: :D ;)
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Mar 25, 2001
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45,907
Re: GPS question

We don't disagree on most of it, Troy.<br /><br />The "clock" in the reciever is adjusted to the Cesium clock in the sats. It's "estimate" of distance is more accurate than typical Radar "estimates" of distance.<br /><br />The satellite signal travels about 9" per nanosecond (.000000001 sec), or about 3 feet in 4 nanoseconds. Measuring the time to within 4 nanoseconds is a piece of cake for even a 1 gigahertz (1,000,000,000 "ticks" per second)clock.<br /><br />Now, do this for each of four to eight satellites, calculate the center point of the intersection of the 4 to 8 "estimates" and you know where you are, in four dimensions, including time, to within as little as 3 feet, given no degradation by the Feds. <br /><br />Poolshark: Degradation, by the way, is consistent, so you can plow furrows only a few inches apart if you wish.
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: GPS question

sloopy - are you saving up your space to debate me or saving the space so that others can :D <br /><br />Just kiddin! (see I can write a short response once in a while!!!)<br /><br />Cheer -T
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: GPS question

Boy, this is just about as much fun as an oil debate.<br /><br />My question is, Will all GPSs give MPH readings regardless of price? I was thinking of buying a used one on Ebay to use just for boat tests!
 
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