NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

[soflaguy]

I've been reading relevant posts here, ordered manuals and been to library gathering alot of material, am finally gonna ask for help.
I bought a Maxum 1700 with an '89 Force outboard. This boat and outboard is pristine. I know the couple I bought it from and bought the boat because I knew the guy has always been great at maintenance on his toys and he sold it to me cheep. The problem is the boat had been in his garage for almost 5 years sitting. I know I have to do the carbs and just about everything else but I wanted to hear it run for a minute and fired it up (on muffs) after putting an impeller in it (the old one was intact but had been chewed a little). I cranked it and cranked it and gave up. Later I went to put the boat away for the day and decided to throttle it all the way up and crank it one more time. It fired, then started running. I can't say it really ran except for maybe 15 seconds. I freaked and shut it down because I wanted to see the water coming out the back and nobody was there to look for me. All the warnings from impeller posts here did that to me!
Since that time I have not gotten the motor to start again. I was reading a long no-start post on here from last Spring and hoped it would provide me with the answer only to see it end with the guy finding out his compression was bad. Mine is good? 3 cylinders, 130-135-140.I did have to buy a replacement starter. The replacement was a dud with the mandrell? gear flying up to the flywheel and the top nut unscrewing up and almost coming off the starter. It grinded into the flywheel making a squeel as it came to a halt. I rebuilt the original starter enough to make it work while I await a replacement new starter for my replacement starter. So I have the original 1989 starter on the motor but it works for now but no start. New spark plugs and each lite my tester between the plug and wire. This tester does lite but the lite seems faint. I can barely see it. I'm so afraid I'm going to need a CD module or something really expensive. I traced the wiring for the ignition, key, battery, starter, relay but not the stator or CDmodule side of the motor since I hope I'm getting enough spark. I had drained the boat's tank also so I worried about the gas and old lines and bought a portable tank and new gas line that I ran to the fuel pump (I checked the filter of the pump, looks clean). When the motor started, it was gas from the built-in tank with fresh gas.
I could really use some direction since the possibilities of what is wrong could be anything. I don't want to throw parts at this thing. I'm grateful the compression seems good but I have to buy a battery charger now although the battery is new. Should I just accept that I have to rebuild the carbs and clean the reeds before it will fire again and hope for the best? I've never done it but I believe I can. If so, I'll do that and then come back to you as I go. Sorry this is so long but I could really use your recommendations here. I'm beat and going around in circles.

 

[Lwapo]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

I'M NO EXPERT....

However,

You've got air in the cylinders and you're getting spark, although possibly weak, it's still spark.

The only component left to make it fire is fuel!

This is the point where many people *NOT RECOMMENDED* spray starter fluid in the cylinders and if it fires for a sec, you can typically assume that a carb rebuild is the next step.

Since spraying starter fluid into a cylinder isn't recommended, you can do the next best thing. Pick up a spray bottle from somewhere and put a small amount of the oil/gas mix in it. You can spray that into a cylinder and it will work approx like it normally will.

Try this and see if it fires up.

Once again, youv'e got air and spark... the only thing missing to make fire is fuel!

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Thanks for the reply. I've read of people doing this and the long post that I had followed before had the guy spraying starter fluid and the gas mix into the cylinders and the carbs also. He ended up with damaged cylinders. I'm going to do the spary of gas mix into the cylinders as you suggest. I'll just skip the starter fluid. I also am looking at the fuel and thats why I got the portable tank and new gas lines. The spark plugs seem very dry. Wouldn't they have some gas on them just from cranking it so much? Thanks for your suggestion, I'll post the result.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Took a while to get back after I got sidetracked by the arrival of my new starter. Its in but I'm concentrating on the fuel issue since I also think thats my problem. Although I had originally checked the fuel pump, I decided to dive back into it since it had started once with a backfire and I'd read on here that a backfire could've put a hole in my diaphragm. I had a big surprise when I opened it up. Not only did the diaphragm not look good, but I had the wrong set-up in there. My fuel pump had the booster spring in there. I'd not seen it anywhere in a manual or my maintenance book from Mercury on 3 cylinder Force outboards. I even have a micro-fiche of parts that was an original from US Marine. No booster spring. Only 2 check valves are in there. They are the valves behind the sediment bowl and then there's a big spring that pushes the diaphragm out and there's no check valve in the other part of the pump at all. Is this a set-up to keep an open flow of gas? I see the booster spring is on the "B" model of the '89 Force. My Mercury dealer wasn't much help. He'd never seen that. I had read here somebody said to "pick up 3 check valves", so I did. Now I have the new diaphragm and have to figure out how to get the pressed in valve out, press the new ones in and place the middle one in behind the screws. I had also read here that all the valves are the same, a dremel and screwdriver could be used to remove the pressed ones and I figure the main idea here is to have them all facing the right direction and the unit becomes sealed so the diaphragm can do its job. Maybe somebody used the spring because the valves weren't available or was this a necessary change for gas flow? I'll check the lines for blockage after I get home from work. Also, since the flow of gas might change, will a change at the pump affect the carbs on start-up? Anybody know the deal with this spring?

 

[DukeDelago]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

I think you are still getting ahead of yourself, first you need to see if the issue is even fuel delivery, then worry about why it's not being delivered. Do the test that was posted above with the spray bottle, that will tell you for certain if fuel is your problem. More than likely the carbs need cleaned. if there is fuel getting to the bowls of the carbs the fuel pump wouldn't be your issue anyway, they are only refilling those bowls not feeding the engine itself, the carbs do that. Regardless if you have already taken the pump apart, it would be a good idea to replace the diaphram even if it looked good, which it sounds like it doesn't. They are cheap and will be one less thing to worry about especially since it has been sitting. My money is on varnished carbs. Take them off, break them down, clean thoroughly and reassemble using factory settings for mixture. If the plugs are dry that's another indication that the fuel is not reaching the combustion chamber. From the manual I have that covers your engine also, the pump should have a spring. Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Thanks Duke, its finally Saturday so I will do as you both have suggested and spray that gas mix into the cylinders, then start. How much gas are you talking about? Just a fine mist, one spray? I know it doesn't take a whole lot and I don't want to do much damage. As for the spring in the pump. I read and read on these forums yesterday and found a couple of posts. I think it was said that the spring became an improvement to the pump and was used on the 5 cylinder models. I guess it doesn't matter if fuel is reaching the carbs as you say since the carbs provide it to the motor as needed and the pump with the spring probably is able to provide as much gas as carbs need also. I'm sure you're right about the varnish too. Anyway, I did buy the new diaphragm and will put it in the way it was with the spring for now. I might have to replace the one check valve in the center though. I bought 3, there is only the middle one in place with the other 2 misssing? I wonder if I spray gas in the cylinder and it fires, will it maybe destroy the new diaphragm? I did talk to the man I bought it from about the pump. He was clueless about it but said he'd had it serviced and it was running good when he put it in the garage. I have that bill and he had spent alot of money on it then. It says it was for carburetor work - $600.00. Dang! I should've been a boat mechanic. This old motor looks like its never seen a screwdriver. There's not a scratch on her and all the labels look like new. Will post after the cylinder fire. Sorry I did not do it when first suggested.

 

[jason32038]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

When you squeeze your primer bulb and it gets hard that means the carbs have fuel in them. If it's not firing it's probably another issue.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

That primer bulb has been an issue that made me get a portable tank and new gas line then ultimately into the fuel pump. The very 1st time I primed it with the bulb from the built-in tank, the bulb got hard. When i was doing it I also remember seeing gas shoot from 3 places above each carb. It was a pretty good squirt of fuel. Thats when it started the 1 and only time. It seems after that, the bulb never gets as hard and I hear alot of air in the line. So I put a new line, new bulb and new portable tank on. Almost seemed the same, so I opened up the fuel pump and found the spring set-up.
Today, the new starter seemed fine. I re-assembled the fuel pump with a new diaphragm, a new check valve in the center thats screwed secure and the namual suggests, and new gaskets. I put the diaphragm in without that spring ( I've seen it called a booster spring). It puts the pump to spec for my model, '89 85hp Force H model.Plus I can put the spring on later because it really stretches the diaphragm.
I sprayed a little gas into each cylinder and bam! Each cylinder fired. I heard it but it was very quick. Each plug had the proof. So where to now? The carbs are varnished? The reeds too? If so, does each carb need a rebuild? New parts? I read that they must be soaked in a solvent. Suggestions about what type, how long and do I have to completely dismantle each one into pieces or just soak and try to clean the tiny passageways with a wire or something. This will be my first time with a carburetor. At least alone that is. Be kind.

 

[robms6]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Your repair man. should contain the vital carb breakdown / buildup steps/ & most importantly stock Settings. 1st make sure your carb settings are to spec. Have you noticed fuel leaking/pouring out of your intake while cranking while choked or unchoked? If so I would look at a poss. sticking float. While troublshooting carbs i usually drop the bowl. Then try a blast of wd-40 through the straw into the main jet opening. This usually blows enough gunk out of the jet to allow the engine to idle. If it idles after you know that your problem is carb related. I would still rebuild the carbs and add a $7 in line fuel filter between the fuel pump and the carbs.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

I am definitely gonna add that filter. I'd like to get a clear one that I can see the gas through since my primer bulb seems to never get hard. I never feel like its all completely full of fuel. I haven't seen any gas come out of the intake. I took the intake off to see the throat of the carbs. That shouldn't make a difference in starting should it? When I go to adjust the screws at the front of each carb, will they come out completely and then I can clean them and reseat and then open the required turns? The Seloc manual has me removing all 3 carbs as a unit first. The US Marine, outboard service manual for 3 cylinder models has me removing each carb individually. I really like to US Marine version but it was published way before the Seloc manual. Its an original factory supplied book, but easily understood. I read on here that some had gotten carb kits from auto stores. Do I need a specific kit?

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

I meant to add that I'll try that WD40 trick first. What material is the float inside made of? I've been surprised that the gaskets in the fuel tank are cardboard.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Comp sounds good.Make sure spark is good.Get a spark gap tester $6 The gap should be about 7/16"
If the bulb doesn't get firm and gas isin't comming out out of the carbs.Then the ball is probably bad.They can be new and BAD!!!
Take the carbs off and clean them.Be careful what kink of cleaner you use as some soaks ruin plastic and rubber.
Off the shelf carb cleaners in the spray can will work.
Remove the bowls and check the gunk.Be careful as there are small springs in some carbs.Post pics if you want.
Then after you get them clean and back on .Follow the starting procedures.
Throttle advance,use choke.Turn key.

 

[jason32038]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Is the fuel shooting out the sides of the carbs near the top? You might have to adjust the floats. I had that problem and all I had to do was bend the tab back up on the float.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Yea, I had fuel shoot out the top the first time I started it when I was priming the bulb.
I took the carbs apart and cleaned em. I didn't buy any new parts but I was surprised when I saw the little chunks of something inside the bowls. There weren't many but each bowl had a few and although small, I could see em clogging up those tiny holes. I'm a little concerned about the floats. I didn't remove them, just turned them upside down and measured like the manual said. I could just barely see the pin that they move and could at least see how its all supposed to work. The measurements wren't exact but they were close. I now know also what it means when you say its varnished. I was able to clean it to a different color altogether. Everything is back together tonight. I did add the filter to the line running from the fuel pump to the carbs. Its one of those clear ones. I want to see whats in the gas right now. So I have a new fuel line with a new bulb running to it all from a new portable tank. I jope to use the built-in tank but probably some of those chunks in the carb bowls came from that tank or the fuel line and bulb from it. That bulb seems not right. If everything starts. I'll clean that tank again and run new line and bulb from it but at least the filter is on there. I may be over worried but I didn't prime it or try to start it yet. Is it gonna try to start even though I haven't adjusted those carbs yet? I seated the needles and opened them one full turn like the manual says. Also, I didn't do anything about the reeds. I looked at them and they looked bright and clean and shiny. But there was a residue of gas/oil kinda puddled at the very end of each one. Just a little but I was afraid of touching them to see if they weren't stuck. I'd hate to open it up too much. Thought about using a feeler gauge and sticking it to the edge but didn't want to bend anything. What are they made of? Looks like thin aluminum.
What do you think? Am I good to try it tommorrow?

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Tried the motor today. It seemed like it was gonna happen. I heard it fire barely then it wouldn't crank again. My starter started to bog down and turn slower and slower. The I noticed I had no choke. I let it rest a few minutes and read up on the starting circuit. I started tracing the voltage from the battery and everything seemed OK. I got to the test of the restifier and it seems bad although it wouldn't effect the starter right? I removed the starter relay and checked it for continuity. I think its bad. Would a bad relay make my choke not work also? I've got it removed. I saw a couple of posts on this forum about testing. Also I saw my voltmeter on the dash really drop when I turned the key. I've had the battery charged up. Solenoid/Relay? This one looks alot like the one in my Ford Ranger. I don't suppose they are the same thing are they? Must it be a marine starter for my motor or is it just the fit I'm looking for? I'd like to get a new one tommorrow. I hope i'm getting close.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Noby's home I guess but heck, I'm still at it and the motor still isn't running. Today I went ahead and got a Universal starter relay/solenoid. My parts guy said they will go in and out intermittently so that will be $50 please. I did the test with my meter that placed the probes on the #2 ground(solenoid) and the powerhead ground. Had a friend turn the key and saw voltage. That meant the solenoid was good according to my manual and I should be looking for a wiring issue. I have 2 circuit breakers (no longer available) that I wonder about. One is inline to the starter system. Does anyone know about these. Surely they'd be a cheap part to replace and there has to be a replacement for them. Now, after reading other posts here I'm thinking my key switch may be bad or corroded. What about that part? Replace? Repair? Anybody know anything between it and the starter solenoid? Its really hot here in Ft. Lauderdale and my brain is frying while I work on this thing. Any tip or help, even a hello would be appreciated. My neighborhood is watching and starting to ask questions. Like "have you started it up yet? Has it been out to sea? Luckily I have an umbrella. Just need to remember to drink water.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

If your moter is turning over.Then the solenoid in no problem.The battery good and hot?
How about spark???Get spark testers.
The choke when you activate it is it closing the butterflys?
I had a motor that no mater what I did it would give me fits.I would have to tilt it all the way up.Then push in the key/choke then turn it over.It would pop/start,cough turn it off right away..Then I could lower it into the water and it would start.
Use test light to see if the breakers are good.
Fuel system.See below.J

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Thanks Jerry. Its really weird. I have a new battery but had run it down trying to crank. I cleaned the carbs and after installing them, I expected to crank that motor up. I have a new starter on as well. When I turn the key, sometimes the starter will try and sometimes it just sits there. The new problem is the choke not working. It had been no problem but its intermittent now too. When it does work, the butterflies open and close. I took the intake off because I'd read how the gaskets there could catch the butterflies and make em stick. I did have the battery recharged down at Pep Boys although I hate that place. I didn't watch them do it and wonder if its charged properly. The new symptom with all this is my in-dash voltmeter shows the battery voltage drop when I turn the key. It makes me think of a wiring issue and I'm checking all my grounds, etc. I read last night how to check the circuit breakers with my meter and will do that today. I bought a new solenoid yesterday and will replace that too. This had not been an issue before I took the carbs off and reinstalled them so I'm looking at my work there. But I also keep thinking that new battery isn't charged properly. I might take it to get tested where I bought it. You never know. Would the key switch cause all these headaches? I haven't been under there with my meter since its so hot but guess that might be where I'm headed. I'll post what I find after testing those breakers. I appreciate your feedback.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

I went out to check those breakers but forgot that I had pulled the old solenoid off before I went to bed last night. I'll put the new one on later when I get off work and then start with my meter at the battery post. I remember doing that earlier and it lead me to get the new solenoid. I've tested so many things at various times I've forgottten what happened. The new solenoid should be fine so I'll install it and start at the beginning and post results this afternoon. Wish I had the day off.

 

[soflaguy]

Re: NO start, recommission - 89 85hp Force

Put in the new solenoid and started the tests as outlined in my Seloc manual. I'd done these tests before and that had lead me to the new solenoid. The very first test was to put the common lead of my meter to a ground and the other lead to the neg. battery post on the battery and check for 12 volts. Aha! Only 8 volts. What the heck. Started tracing the cable and found a slice on the transom. The bolt holding the motor into the transom had sliced the neg. battery cable and it was full of oxidation. Man, the simplest thing. The very first thing I shouldve looked for but that test had been OK before. Now,to pull that cable and run some new. Not sure of the length needed but new ones should make a big difference. Will be hell to get under that gas tank area but will post results.