1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

[Greg_E]

I just installed this engine to replace an ailing 1988 Looper. It has been in storage for a long time, but was advertised as low hours, and from the condition, I would say that is accurate. The engine started and ran at the dealers on an engine stand. I was told a compression test was done and everything was good and pressures were even in each cylinder.
I did replace the VRO pump because I was concerned with the condition of the diaphrams after being stored for so long. I've run 12 gal of 50:1 premix to ensure the VRO was working, so at first I attributed the hard starting to the rich oil mixture (VRO +50:1).
I also ran the first 6 gal tank of fuel with some seafoam (two weeks ago), and tried a spray can of decarb through the schraeder valve today. There has been no improvement even though I'm no longer running premix. I pulled the carbs and even though the bowls looked immaculate, I had the yard mechanic go through them. He found very little sediment. Still have the same problem after reinstalling the carbs. Did a compression test. Port bank are all about 100 lbs. Stbd side a little over 90 lbs.
The engine is very hard to get started and if it does, it may stall on its own, or if I try to advance the throttle it will usually but not always bog and stall. It wil not start in the neutral position. I have to advance the throttle to get it to start.
If I can get it on plane the engine runs pretty good and has never bogged or stalled while up on plane. It may have a bad coil or related problem as It will only rev to about 4500 RPM. I'll look into that more next weekend.
I found a thread where a a similar problem was caused by clogged recirc valves. Sound plausible?
Any other suggestions? I want to go back with as much info as I can, along with any special tools I need to troubleshoot.
The other engine was replaced for way low compression, but if I could get it started in the morning, it would start every time once the engine was hot. This is different.
Sorry for the long post, but I didn't want to leave anything out.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I would bring it back to the dealers?

Short of that, have you ensured first that she is firing on all cylinders?

There is a great thread in the FAQ entitled "Outboard Wont Start", follow the directions and let us know what you find.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Bringing the boat back to where I bought the motor is not an option, and he is not going to send a mechanic. It's too far away. As I mentioned, It may not be firing on one cylinder as I can only get 4500 RPM WOT. I will pursue that issue the next time I'm at the boat. I've owned V6 loopers since 1987, and even with 5 cylinders they will start fairly easily. I'v had one bank of the powerpack go out, and could still get the engine started. Ran like crap, but it started.
I'll look at the FAQ.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

ttt

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Somebody must have some thoughts on this.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Waiting on your answers from the FAQ thread??

Did you go through it step by step?

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

The last thing to check, after you have done the basic checks. Compression, spark, missing parts, fuel pressure, flywheel magnets + many more. Check the bore size of the carbs.
The carbs were replaced on some of the loopers to solve this problem. Remember this may not be the problem.

Reread post, compression looks good. I would start with the igntion first, like how much voltage at primary side of coil, at cranking rpms.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Waiting on your answers from the FAQ thread??

Did you go through it step by step?

I can't give you the answers to all those questions, because i am not at the boat. I did not have all my test equipment with me last weekend, so I can't answer all those questions. Yes the batteries are charged, and it cranks normally. I don't feel it is a failed electrical component or it would be running poorly at high rpm, and in fact would be more likely to breakdown at higher RPM's. At least that has been my experience. It would seem to be a fuel related problem.
I have posted what I know at this time. I have listed the compression numbers. Are they good or bad for a small bore looper? The manual doesn't state what that number should be, just that they need to be within 10%. I've asked if clogged recirc valves can cause the symptoms I'm seeing. You have not commented on either. Telling me to take a 150 mile ride and and then report back isn't helping me. I understand the problem needs to be approached in a methodical manner, and when I get back to the boat, I will do that. Right now I'm looking for possible causes, so I can be prepared when I go back to work on it.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

The last thing to check, after you have done the basic checks. Compression, spark, missing parts, fuel pressure, flywheel magnets + many more. Check the bore size of the carbs.
The carbs were replaced on some of the loopers to solve this problem. Remember this may not be the problem.

Reread post, compression looks good. I would start with the igntion first, like how much voltage at primary side of coil, at cranking rpms.

The magnets are all in place. Whether they are weak or not is yet to be determined, but the vollt meter on the gauge panel is reading normally when the engine is running, so they would seem to be strong enough to charge the batteries . All the parts are there.
The problem seems to be fuel related, and I have not ruled out the fact that the new fuel pump I installed could be defective.
Do you have any more info on the carburator bore size?
One thing I'm unsure about is the theory of operation of the recirc valves, and what happens if the are clogged.

 

[Rick Midyette]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I have a 88 225 looper and found bad wireing in the harness to the motor
that was doing the same thing shorting out while getting one a plane
also pulled the flywhell and the mags where loose leaving a 1in. gap
ran fine out of the water replace stator and cd box flywheel
and harness and now it is way out of timeing so check all the wireing dude
and i would check the flywheel

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I have the service bulletin, will dig it out tomorrow. Recic valves do cause idle problems. You are down 1000 rpms also. Check the fuel pump, pressure side and vacumn side. Sears has gage that will do this. I still would check the ignition, check voltage at idle if it will idle.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I have the service bulletin, will dig it out tomorrow. Recic valves do cause idle problems. You are down 1000 rpms also. Check the fuel pump, pressure side and vacumn side. Sears has gage that will do this. I still would check the ignition, check voltage at idle if it will idle.

I agree that one of the cylinders is probably not firing and is probably the reason I'm only getting 4500 RPM's at WOT.
I'll pick up a pressure/vacumn gauge to bring with me.
I already have the syringe and alcohol packed to check the recirc valves. If you can dig up the info on the carbs that would be great. The 1988 that this engine replaced, has a good fuel pump and carbs so If all else fails I can try those, provided the carb pn's cross to a 1986.

Rick,
I've already looked at the magnets. they are all still bonded to the flywheel. With twin 225's I've had to troubleshoot numerous ignition problems over the years. This seems different. I do however plan on verifying the operation of the electrical components.
I think this engine had a fundamental problem from new and is the reason it has sat with almost no hours on it. The dealer said the problem was fixed, but I'm not so sure.
Can anyone tell me what the compression is on a new 1986 engine, and what is the minimum acceptable number?

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Model number please. Motor height on tramson.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Model number please. Motor height on tramson.

1986 E225TXCDA. I can't give you that dimension until I get to the boat, but I can tell you that the engines are mounted on a Gil bracket (or Proline's version of a Gil bracket) . The boat is a 1988 28' Proline walkaround. The engines do sit low in the water, but neither of the 1988 engines ever had a problem at that position when they were running properly. Just a guess, but I would say they are probably in the second or third mounting hole from the lowest position. There is probably about 2" from the top of the Gil bracket to the lip of the engine mounting bracket.

I'm curious where your going with this.

BTW, I picked up the vacuum/ fuel pressure test gauge at Advance Auto. The Sears near me didn't have one in stock.

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I needed the model number to verify year and 20 inch or 25 in motor.

Some of the 1986 engines had the same problem you are having. Boats with the engines setting low in the water at rest had the most problems. What OMC did was to replace the carbs with 1987 carbs, which had smaller bore. The pn for the new carb was 398393 ID1537.

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Carb Jet size for orignal carbs main jet 65D, intermediate jet 14M, low speed jet 20M.
Carb jet size for Carb 398393 main jet 62D, intermediate jet 14M, low speed jet 48M.

 

[imthemedic]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

Compression should be over 80psi more is better lol.
I would pull the carbs and give them a good cleaning.
Check your primer lines to see if there clogged or if there spraying.
The recurc lines should be pulled and the fittings cleaned with a small wire or the omc tool.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

imthemedic,
I have already pulled the carbs and had them cleaned. When I removed the bowls on two of them, they were immaculate. I had the yard mechanic go through them anyway, but he said there was very little dirt in the carbs.
clanton,
I will do some of the checks this weekend to make sure we are on the right track. They engine ran great when it was on the muffs. When it went in the water the hard starting/ idle problem appeared. Looks like I have an engine that's allergic to salt water. LOL!
If the carbs are the problem, can and should they be rejetted with the larger low speed jets. That would do nothing to decrease the bore diameter. I assume the smaller carb bore was to increase the velocity of the air, in turn causing more fuel to be pulled in.
I do have 6 good carbs from the 1988 but they are pn 0398366&5. I don't know if they can be used.
There is a used engine parts dealer near the boat, so there is a possibility I can get 1987 carbs and rebuild them for not to much money.

 

[clanton]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

You can take the part number i gave you, ask dealer to pull up changes to number, and compare the numbers to 1988 carbs. OMC and BRP chains the pns. This will give you all of the pns from the basic number to the latest change or inprovement.

 

[Greg_E]

Re: 1986 225HP V6 Looper Hard starting, bogs, stalls

I found this thread on the Whaler forum.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006719.html
The symptoms and what the OP did to try to resolve the issue (to no avail) could have been written by me. Plugging the idle air bleed orfice with toothpicks sounds like an easy way to either verify or discount that this is the issue.
Clanton,
Do you agree that the 1987 carb must be a significantly different design than the 1986 to have such large idle air bleed orifices? In that thread it was stated that the orifice has to be a smaller number, if you want to add fuel. Unfortunately I already ordered the 48M's thinking I could install them and maybe get it running until I can find the 1987 carbs. If that info is correct, I've gone the wrong direction for rejetting the 1986. Correct?
If I don't get this thing running soon, my wife's going to make me buy a new boat!

..............Oh yeah. That's a problem why??????

I also checked with the dealer. The part number for the 1988 carbs don't cross to the 1987