E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

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CatTwentyTwo

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Quote:
How do you explain it getting BETTER mileage than it did when it was brand new? No one has yet to explain that.

I have no reason to doubt your mpg figures, but I don't believe for a minute that the E3 plugs had anything to do with it. Did you happen to tell your buddies about these new plugs you are using? My guess is somebody is playing a joke and adding a bit of gas to your truck when you're not looking.
 

4JawChuck

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Every vehicles mileage improves after break-in when new, my 2008 Dodge Caravan improved at least 10% once it had 20 000kms on it. As for plug heat range affecting piston life...it doesn't unless a hotter plug causes detonation.
 

trendsetter240

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

You know this is all very easy to resolve. Just get a new set of the standard champion or ngk plugs for your truck and run those. Compare the fuel economy and performance between the two.

If one has better performance and/or mileage than you will know that is the better plug. If performace stays the same then the improvement was because the old plugs were underperforming.

I'd like to run this test myself though I haven't been able to find the equivilant plugs for my outboard yet.

After that maybe bruceb58 will come over and wax your truck for you. Apparently he has the magic touch:D
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Every vehicles mileage improves after break-in when new, my 2008 Dodge Caravan improved at least 10% once it had 20 000kms on it. As for plug heat range affecting piston life...it doesn't unless a hotter plug causes detonation.



Yes, this is what I was referring to, the plug running very hot and causing pre ignition. Typically the plug will melt down first, but I have holed a piston when the track conditions were different than what I had set the motor up for.

In racing applications I needed to watch this closely to prevent damage.

The reason for my original comment on this was because he mentioned a hotter plug would produce more power and I wanted to know if he meant a hotter heat range plug, or hotter spark.
 

dr_bowtie

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

here is the reason the E3s may do better than the factory plug...

Factory plugs should have been a Platinum core plug...like the ones we all use now...the Platinum offers a longer service life but at a cost...

It take MORE spark energy to fire a platinum plug than it does others...this can result in a hotter spark but can also result in a spark that is a millisecond slower...that is until the coil starts to saturate and thus doesnt have the full potential to fire the plug...

Now the E3 plugs are a nickle plated COPPER core plug...the copper is a very low resistance element thus it take very LITTLE spark energy to jump so even a weak coil can fire a plug that a Platinum plug would have trouble with...

the Nickle plating helps with the service life as copper elements wear rather quickly on their own...

the fact is...the copper core E3 plugs just fire easier and you regained a little spark energy back that you were losing in a lesser system...

it is not un-common to get better mileage later on than when new as at new the engine is tighter an experience more frictional losses...after some good miles these losses lesson and there is less foot pressure on the throttle to get the same rpm...less throttle means less fuel consumed...

this is also why the emissions are better...more spark energy mean more of a complete burn...

This IS NOT a new technology...copper core plugs have been out forever...heck they started with them in the old days all they way thru poit ignition days and still many places have them...only difference is the cost for the funky looking ground strap...

you CAN get the same results going with a Copper Core Motorcraft plug and change it more often...and save some cash too...

while you're at it add and MSD spark box and not worry about what plugs you run...that will fire even when fouled...just use a Brass cap and rotor if you have a distributor or you'll be changing caps and rotors more often then not...lol
 

waterinthefuel

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

First, thank you to everyone who responded with respectful comments. However, my challenge went Unanswered correctly. Well, one poster got it right. A hot plug will cause preignition, not detonation, and this isn't good for an engine but not nearly as bad as detonation. It doesn't "get so hot it burns the piston" Thats cute and funny but way wrong. That let's me know who has knowledge about this stuff and who is, shall we say, misguided.

That being said, it makes sense about the core of the plug. Nobody but me ever went near that truck or knew I had different plugs so to say someone added gas to my tank is laughable. I'd like to know who could do that at 70mph because that truck spent very little time idle. It was filled on the way out and on the way back at the same pump. The people I helped know nothing of me and my plugs so that's a laughable excuse that ignores the burnig question of why the truck is getting better mileage now than at 5 or even 10k miles, well past break in.
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

There were a couple of posts that got a little off topping and possibly insulting, but not bad for internet forums.

I am only challenging and questioning you on the results you reported, its not a personal attack

Here is a definition of Pre-ignition and the resulting damage.



PRE-IGNITION
Another condition that is sometimes confused with detonation is "preignition." This occurs when a point within the combustion chamber becomes so hot that it becomes a source of ignition and causes the fuel to ignite before the spark plug fires. This, in turn, may contribute to or cause a detonation problem.


Instead of the fuel igniting at the right instant to give the crankshaft a smooth kick in the right direction, the fuel ignites prematurely (early) causing a momentarily backlash as the piston tries to turn the crank in the wrong direction. This can be very damaging because of the stresses it creates. It can also localize heat to such an extent that it can partially melt or burn a hole through the top of a piston!


Preignition can also make itself known when a hot engine is shut off. The engine may continue to run even though the ignition has been turned off because the combustion chamber is hot enough for spontaneous ignition. The engine may continue to run-on or "diesel" and chug erratically for several minutes.


To prevent this from happening, some engines have a "fuel cutoff solenoid" on the carburetor to stop the flow of fuel to the engine once the ignition is turned off. Others use an "idle stop solenoid" that closes the throttle completely to shut of the engine's air supply. If either of these devices is misadjusted or inoperative, run-on can be a problem. Engines with electronic fuel injection don't have this problem because the injectors stop spraying fuel as soon as the ignition is turned off.


CAUSES OF PRE-IGNITION
Carbon deposits form a heat barrier and can be a contributing factor to preignition. Other causes include: An overheated spark plug (too hot a heat range for the application). Glowing carbon deposits on a hot exhaust valve (which may mean the valve is running too hot because of poor seating, a weak valve spring or insufficient valve lash).

A sharp edge in the combustion chamber or on top of a piston (rounding sharp edges with a grinder can eliminate this cause).

Sharp edges on valves that were reground improperly (not enough margin left on the edges).

A lean fuel mixture.

Low coolant level, slipping fan clutch, inoperative electric cooling fan or other cooling system problem that causes the engine to run hotter than normal.
 

bruceb58

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Maybe its just me, but running 7.4 gallons worth of fuel is not enough to validate anything.

Bottom line is that if the original spark plugs weren't completely burning the fuel to make up a difference between 20 MPG and 27 MPG, you would have so much unburnt fuel spewing into your catalytic converter that it would be glowing red hot!

Some people make claims that indexing your plugs will help power and fuel economy as well. The differences are so negligible that variations in tests will have a greater impact in the results of the tests than the supposed fix does. Same is true here.
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

A test on this plug.

Don't count on E3 spark plugs to save you money on gas
by Sam (RSS feed) on Oct 21st 2007 at 2:43PM

Over the years, countless companies have come up with devices claimed to reduce fuel consumption. The claims have ranged from plausible to the ridiculous. For example, wrapping magnets around your fuel line will not double your mileage and the only way you will ever get 200 mpg with a carburetor is to make it so small that air and fuel flow are so restricted that it can't possibly use more fuel than that. Of course your engine would produce so little power in the process as to be useless.

Spark plugs have long been a popular area for "innovation" of this sort. One of the latest comes in the form of the E3 spark plug featuring its DiamondFire electrode. This one falls into the plausible-but-unlikely category. Writer Larry Edsall recently undertook the latest iteration of a 5,000 mile annual road trip and decided to try out the E3 plugs. While E3 claims a 3-5 percent improvement in mileage, Edsall found his dipped from 20.11/19.98 the previous two years to 19.18 with the E3 plugs. He did all the usual maintenance like oil changes and tire pressures before leaving. Of course the vehicle was a year older and more worn which may have contributed to the dip. But even a fully scientific test with two or more vehicles running side by side in the same conditions (aside from the spark plugs) would probably yield a negligible difference at best. The E3 plugs aren't that pricey ($6-7 each) so if you do choose to try them it won't cost a lot. Just don't be too disappointed if you don't see much improvement in mileage.
 

4JawChuck

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

While I was in HS I was a bit of a rodder and spent the better part of grade 11-12 in our school auto shop, I had a great teacher in that as long as we performed service to vehicles as they came in and helped teach the younger students our group of gear heads had free reign to do what we wanted in the shop.

In between engines I built and teachers cars that came in and out I took a great interest in the Champion spark plug tester that sat unused in the corner of the shop, it was very simple in that it only needed 120V power to run and compressed air to test plugs out in the compression chamber, the teacher seen it more as a teaching tool but I soon found other uses for it...long before there were "splitfire" and "v-groove" plugs I was testing those very same designs with little more than a handful of old plugs and a file and grinder and the shop plug sandblaster.

I soon found out that all those fancy plug electrode shapes had little to do with how long a plug would fire as pressure went up, all those delicate ground electrode shapes would open the spark kernel up to incoming airflow and would extinguish earlier. I was doing similar testing on my 69 Mustang with a 351W as I made plugs to see if there was any difference in real life and all I found was that a hot rodded engine would burn those tiny ground electrode projections off at high rpm...so much for fancy shapes.

Next I tried grooving the center electrode and all that did was make the spark kernel focus on one of the edges surrounding the groove concentrating the wear to one edge or the other...at least my real world testing showed they didn't break down catastrophically but it was obvious removing material from the center electrode made them wear faster...so much for grooved center electrodes.

Around that time I picked up a great book written by a great racing engineer, Smokey Yunick's "Best Damn Garage in Town". As a young impressionable mind I devoured that book and savored every page, I don't think I put it down until it was finished...probably took me 8 hours to read it once through and another week to dissect every page to find material I could use to make my car faster. Thanks Smokey, you made me what I am today.

In that book he discussed spark plug shapes and designs he tried during his racing career and his experiments mirrored my own experience...except for one. He mentions the only design that made any sense and lasted the longest plus made more power on the dyno was the shortened ground electrode. Essentially you cut/grind off half of the ground electrode so you expose half of the center electrode to the chamber which gives some shrouding to the kernel but enough exposure without causing extinguishing at high rpms.

Intrigued I grabbed a spark plug at school the next day and did exactly as described and low and behold he was right, that plug would spark at higher pressures and was definetely brighter in the plug chamber due to the greater exposure of the center electrode, I even tried removing the orifice in the incoming air line to see if high air flow caused the spark to extinguish, guess what it was almost equal to the standard plug and way better than my previous designs. Guess the standard plug design wasn't so bad after all.

I went out and bought a new set of plugs the next week and modified them according to Smokey and did some testing in my Mustang. Not only did the plugs cure a mild stumble I had off the line (slightly rich mixture with a Holley 650DP) but I gained about 200 rpm before spark scatter killed the rpm around 6500 with the poor single points ignition I had at the time.

So if you want the best working HP plugs money can buy take a plain set of standard plugs and grind off half the ground electrode, they ignite rich mixtures better and will offset spark scatter if you have a weak points ignition system. They last almost as long as a plain set of factory plugs and cost almost nothing to duplicate, if you really want to get fancy you can index the plugs in the chamber but in my testing you need to buy a lot of plugs to get a set that will index properly...not to mention you need to experiment to find which way they should face. There was a mild performance increase with indexing but mostly it was idle stability that improved.

So there ya go, everytime I see some goofy plug design come out I laugh because either I tried it at one time or the idea is just stupid to anyone who has done this kind of testing. BTW you should have seen the stuff I did with Mazda Rotary plugs trying to find an improvement...guess what...the plain jane factory NGK's four ground electrode plugs were the best.

Sometimes the factory stuff just works, go figure the mfg would know what works best with their products huh?:cool:
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

I did sort of the same thing in HS. I raced motorcycles and made new pipes, ported the cylinders, milled new parts, bored them for oversized pistons, cut the frames and modified the suspension, laced wheels, etc. I also rebuilt the principals Yamaha 250, good thing it turned out well. I spent all day in the shop frequently.

I actually wanted to race boats, but I had no way to get them to the water.
 

waterinthefuel

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

A test on this plug.

Don't count on E3 spark plugs to save you money on gas
by Sam (RSS feed) on Oct 21st 2007 at 2:43PM

Over the years, countless companies have come up with devices claimed to reduce fuel consumption. The claims have ranged from plausible to the ridiculous. For example, wrapping magnets around your fuel line will not double your mileage and the only way you will ever get 200 mpg with a carburetor is to make it so small that air and fuel flow are so restricted that it can't possibly use more fuel than that. Of course your engine would produce so little power in the process as to be useless.

Spark plugs have long been a popular area for "innovation" of this sort. One of the latest comes in the form of the E3 spark plug featuring its DiamondFire electrode. This one falls into the plausible-but-unlikely category. Writer Larry Edsall recently undertook the latest iteration of a 5,000 mile annual road trip and decided to try out the E3 plugs. While E3 claims a 3-5 percent improvement in mileage, Edsall found his dipped from 20.11/19.98 the previous two years to 19.18 with the E3 plugs. He did all the usual maintenance like oil changes and tire pressures before leaving. Of course the vehicle was a year older and more worn which may have contributed to the dip. But even a fully scientific test with two or more vehicles running side by side in the same conditions (aside from the spark plugs) would probably yield a negligible difference at best. The E3 plugs aren't that pricey ($6-7 each) so if you do choose to try them it won't cost a lot. Just don't be too disappointed if you don't see much improvement in mileage.

Who is this guy? So because this guy lost less than 1mpg that means they don't work? That's laughable. I wanted an actual source. That article is worth nothing. If "dozens" of REAL tests have been done on this plug to dispute the one I posted in the video, links should be filling this thread. The fact is they aren't. In fact, the disputes to my claims and the claims made by horsepowerTV have been laughable at best. Not everyone will see an increase in mileage no matter what they do. But less than 1mpg.....heck he could have had a TINY bit more of a lead foot than he did before. That's hilarious! LOL

Of course the vehicle was a year older and more worn which may have contributed to the dip. But even a fully scientific test with two or more vehicles running side by side in the same conditions (aside from the spark plugs) would probably yield a negligible difference at best.

Ahh, nothing like pure speculation to prove something doesn't work! LOL :rolleyes:
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

You're the one making the claims. This guys results possibly carry no more credibility than yours, the difference is his are the ones that would be expected, he has done this test before and it was over a 5,000 mile span. If there was anything that made sense about it being the plugs responsible for an 8-10 MPG gain I'd run out and buy them tomorrow.
 

Tim Frank

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Who is this guy? :

1) The guy's identifies himself as " Ken" which actually is a credible first name. Sounds more plausible than "Waterinthefuel". Should we call you "Water"...or "Fuel"...:rolleyes:
And this gentleman who posted his observations on the Internet is farrrr less credible than your report because???"

So because this guy lost less than 1mpg that means they don't work? That's laughable. I wanted an actual source. That article is worth nothing. If "dozens" of REAL tests have been done on this plug to dispute the one I posted in the video, links should be filling this thread. The fact is they aren't. In fact, the disputes to my claims and the claims made by horsepowerTV have been laughable at best. Not everyone will see an increase in mileage no matter what they do. But less than 1mpg.....heck he could have had a TINY bit more of a lead foot than he did before. That's hilarious! LOL
Ahh, nothing like pure speculation to prove something doesn't work! LOL :rolleyes:

2) And your claims, while no doubt honest in intent, are wayyyyy more than speculation because....???? :rolleyes:


Nothing like pure arrogance to prove something doesn't work.:rolleyes:
 

4JawChuck

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Here's the website if your interested in reviewing the "technology", their words not mine.

http://www.e3sparkplugs.com/

Looking at that plug I can tell you one thing for sure, it will run so cold from all the ground electrode area it will carbon up and will require early replacement...there is a good reason for the dimensions of standard ground electrodes, they need to run at a certain temps to burn off deposits.

I find it funny that the only research results they chose to list on their website is the paid coporate shill "Horsepower TV" video. Oh wait they also say it will last almost as long as a platinum plug....ummm yea because it will run so cold it will never wear out!

Here's an interesting quote;

"Double blind tests were run comparing the area under the pressure curve itself (the "work" created) for 500 combustion cycles per spark plug design. We also refined our electrode designs to reduce the Coefficient of Variance (COV) of a series of combustion cycles. We performed this work at our test labs in Atlanta, and then continued the development at Georgia Tech and Michigan State University's Engine Research Laboratory."

Anyone want to take a guess at how many minutes of operation 500 combustion cycles represents at various rpms in a four stroke engine? I will spare you the math but lets just say they only tested the plugs at idle speed because gathering info at any other rpm would mean milliseconds of recording time.

What a joke, optimum idle speed performance!
 

bruceb58

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Looking at that plug I can tell you one thing for sure, it will run so cold from all the ground electrode area it will carbon up and will require early replacement...there is a good reason for the dimensions of standard ground electrodes, they need to run at a certain temps to burn off deposits.
And that seems to be the main problem based on reviews left on Amazon that sells the plugs and on other automotive blog sites. Sounds like there are a fair number that get so bad that codes get set for misfires and people end up wasting more money going to their dealer to figure out why the check engine light is on! Apparently, it doesn't happen right away but after a few hundred miles. No wonder these people are also reporting reduced fuel mileage. As the plugs foul, they work worse and worse.

Not sure if the OP will have the same misfire problem in either his truck or his moped.
 

marlboro180

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

Just read this whole thing...Whew!

I like the idea of swapping out the E-3 plugs for a set of OEM plugs and see what happens. That way all the sparring / speculation and yellow toe contestants can have an answer.:D
 

waterinthefuel

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

You're the one making the claims. This guys results possibly carry no more credibility than yours, the difference is his are the ones that would be expected, he has done this test before and it was over a 5,000 mile span. If there was anything that made sense about it being the plugs responsible for an 8-10 MPG gain I'd run out and buy them tomorrow.

No, I'm not, horsepowerTV is. Their video, the evidence they present, the test they ran, certainly didn't claim anything outrageous, in fact just a 5-6% increase in fuel economy. I'm not asking you to dispute my claims (other than why I got better-than-new milage with these plugs) but this guy driving around for 5000 miles isn't a professional test. I know for sure that I went from 19 to 27. Blew me away too, trust me. But the only claim I want people to prove wrong is the one well documented on HPTV. If you can't and just attack the poster, YOU LOSE.
 

ondarvr

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

You're right... I lose... you win....your test trumps every other test that's been done since the sparkplug was invented.
 

waterinthefuel

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Re: E3 diamondfire spark plugs...WHOA BABY!!

You're right... I lose... you win....your test trumps every other test that's been done since the sparkplug was invented.

Certainly trumps every other test posted against it on this thread!!

I love it!! People CONTINUE to say how "tests" have been conducted, but can't post anything more conclusive than some guy in a beat up old car doing who knows what with it for 5000 miles. That makes me believe in these plugs even more! When people first mentioned all these other tests I knew I was going to have my butt handed to me by pages and pages of tests showing that this is happenstance and that E3's are just a gimmick. And I waited, and waited....and continue to wait yet nothing but phantom "tests" are ever posted.

Funny how if you google "E3 scam" you come up with nothing yet tests showing the E3's do "a little bit of good" aren't hard to come by but it sure seems tough as hell to come up with a single reputable test that disputes the claim. Hot darn! Now I'm really glad I got them.
 
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