Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

[gettin'even]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Ayuh,....
Other than the lengthly list of NLA parts,...

I'm not sure what parts these would be. I found all the internals to be available new (sans a crank, but there's plenty of machineable cranks on E-Bay). Heck, there's a ton of good used parts for 470's on E-Bay.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Well, having done a ton of stuff on near zero budget, I know what you're feeling.

But if there's one piece of advice I'd urge you to take, it's to not put your effort into polishing a tu**.

If you have to go the low cash route, put your mechanic's talents to work on a better starting engine... get a junker or worn engine that will fit the transom and supporting parts for the 470, and do the work on that.

You can find such candidate engines very cheap or free... if you keep your eyes open you'll run across one relatively soon.

If you like the idea of rebuilding the 470 because it's an oddball that everyone hates, that's one thing. But if you're doing it to go cheap, it's not the cheap way. The lack of easily available parts will cost you far more in the long run than just waiting a bit and looking around for a more common engine to do your rebuild on.

As has been said, look for a junker boat with a bad hull and junk interior or one that someone doesn't want to store for the winter.

Or get a junkyard engine block and put it through the machinist and marinize and assemble yourself.

You want cheap, get a common engine that was mass produced like a GM 4.3 or 5.7 and do the work yourself. Skip the machinist and just get a working junkyard block with some miles left, overhaul it and marine convert it. Buy used parts from other boats to make it fit your boat... if you're lucky, get an old boat with a rotten hull and siezed motor for near free, and you have all the parts you need.

My first boat I bought what I thought was cheap, I spent six months and lots of materials trying to get it on the water, but in the end I realized that even with the new stringers, transom, deck, and engine overhaul it was still a very worn out old boat that wouldn't do what I wanted. It was hard to give up on the project, especially after I had lots of friends over to help work on it.. long hours of toil for something I sent to a landfill.

But I should have picked a better boat to start with.

Erik

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

There should be a sticky at the top of this page with the title "Why you shouldn't buy a 470"

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

If the grooving of the cam seal issue is fixed, and the owner is smart enough to watch the temp gauge, and not overheat the engine, what is left for a 470 to be an undesireable engine? (I am being serious here)

I was wondering where the hell you were! I'm getting the crap beat out of me! Not really. If this were a discussion about someone getting ready to buy a Dodge Caravan, I'd be just as animated as those who are advising me to abandon my 470.

I'm going to the machinist today, but I'm not sure if I'll have him start working on it yet. I guess I'll wait for the autopsy results.

I looked around craigslist and found a piece of crap boat, no trailer, with a "rebuilt" 4.3L for asking price of $2000. Of course, now we operate under the assumption that every boat seller is either lying or hiding something, don't we?

My dilemma is that I could have two boats with engines that need to be rebuilt, and no more money. At least with my engine, I know what it needs, and if I do all the work, I can afford it now.

I've been able to locate all the parts I need for a rebuild, so I'm not sure why everyone is squawking about parts NLA.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

If the grooving of the cam seal issue is fixed, and the owner is smart enough to watch the temp gauge, and not overheat the engine, what is left for a 470 to be an undesireable engine? (I am being serious here)

Previous owner said the cam seals were replaced by his "mechanic." Excrement-for-Brains didn't use a Readi Sleeve! Seals were riding on rusty grooves.

LOL! "Runs Good."

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Well, if you're mechanically inclined, you can check the motor in the other boat before you buy... compression test, look at the oil, check for spark, see it run....

But if you really like the 470, go for it. There are a few folks who are fans, and don't seem to mind the issues.

Erik

 

[gettin'even]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I was wondering where the hell you were! I'm getting the crap beat out of me! Not really. If this were a discussion about someone getting ready to buy a Dodge Caravan, I'd be just as animated as those who are advising me to abandon my 470.

I'm going to the machinist today, but I'm not sure if I'll have him start working on it yet. I guess I'll wait for the autopsy results.

I looked around craigslist and found a piece of crap boat, no trailer, with a "rebuilt" 4.3L for asking price of $2000. Of course, now we operate under the assumption that every boat seller is either lying or hiding something, don't we?

My dilemma is that I could have two boats with engines that need to be rebuilt, and no more money. At least with my engine, I know what it needs, and if I do all the work, I can afford it now.

I've been able to locate all the parts I need for a rebuild, so I'm not sure why everyone is squawking about parts NLA.

I have been reading alot of posts saying how bad the 3.7 is, but nobody can tell why it SO bad. I know it's quirks and they are fixable...... Then the NLA card gets played. Lots of new and good/used parts are out there. I know my boat is worth squat without a working engine in it. So it's getting fixed.

Anyways, I'll have my anchor...er..um...engine back from the machine shop Friday. I'll let you know how it all turns out $-wise.
Good luck with your project Nate..........

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I have been reading alot of posts saying how bad the 3.7 is, but nobody can tell why it SO bad. I know it's quirks and they are fixable...... Then the NLA card gets played. Lots of new and good/used parts are out there. I know my boat is worth squat without a working engine in it. So it's getting fixed.

Anyways, I'll have my anchor...er..um...engine back from the machine shop Friday. I'll let you know how it all turns out $-wise.
Good luck with your project Nate..........

Maybe we could lobby to get the 470 protected under federal "hate speech" laws.

 

[brdmh44]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Hi Guy's and Gal's

I am unfamiliar with a 470 - would that be the inline four cylinder that was pretty much half of a 460 Ford?

If so, parts aren't much if you know where to look.

I used to work in a machine shop (strictly engine rebuilding) granted I mostly did cylinder heads and CNC work here's my 2 cents on building a good relationship with your engine builder/machine shop of choice:

1. Tell them upfront THE MAX YOUR WILLING to pay - I say this because if they care about your business they will work to get it whether it means a thorough assesment of the parts you bring or finding other companies who carry parts for a lesser price.

2. If your putting the motor together yourself, it wouldn't hurt to invest in some measurement tools - If you tear down the motor then you yourself can check piston to bore clearance, ring end gap, main journal clearances etc.. A dial bore gauge is an invaluable tool --most shops will charge just to check this due to setup time.

3. People often assume they need new pistons for no reason, alot of shops reccomend them because the profit margin is pretty decent. If the skirts look good have them (the pistons) cleaned in the jet hot tank then glassbeaded - Most shops only charge 15 bucks to do that - plus you don't have to re-balance your rotating assembly as you would with new pistons.

4. If you can measure your crank yourself- you can use emery cloth to polish the journals if they are within spec. We basically used a small belt sander with emery cloth, put the crank in the lathe, and polished the journals.

5. If your un-familiar with setting bearing clearance, have the shop do for a small fee - this way everything is ready to go

6. If your motor has alot of hours or has been run hard make it worth your while to replace the valve springs - Elgin Industries carries stock replacement for next to nothing - cheap insurance against valve float and costly damage in the future.

7. Re-Size rods if needed -- If your bearings looked ok, the rods are most likely fine -- but when you have a motor running at high RPM's the rods CAN stretch over time.

8. Last but not least- this is a marine engine - Please have it pressure tested before any work is performed as it's cheap and it can save many headaches from ever happening.

I hope this helps a little bit.

If you give me more specifications on the motor I'd be more than happy to go through my directory and find you some suppliers.

Best of Luck!

--Brad

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

That is a wealth of information. Thanks for taking the time.

I just got back from the machine shop/engine builder. He said that my stuff was in pretty good shape. He checked everything out for me while I waited. Didn't charge anything. Very nice guy.

My cam shaft is in good shape and will be reused (phew!). Crank only needs polishing. Crank and rod bearings will remain standard. No. 1 and 2 cylinders were good, but No 3 and 4 need boring, so he'll bore .010.

His pricelist for procedures seemed very reasonable to me: bore $80, polish crank $40, vat engine $30, press pistons $40, resurface block (if needed) $100, valve job $60, resurface head $40. I may or may not need the last three. The head I bought was supposedly rebuilt recently.

So, I'll spend anywhere from $190 to $390.

Three things we didn't talk about were setting bearing clearance, balancing the rotating assembly, and pressure testing. He may do the latter as a matter of course, but I'll ask. The first two I assume would be done if I paid them to return a short block for $350. I'll ask about those when I deliver the pistons. Actually, I think he did mention doing something with the rods and bearings for $50. That may have been it.

Thanks!

 

[marlboro180]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Have him check the head to make sure it is flat.
;Boy, the prices sure seem reasonable!! Good luck and glad to hear you're on your way.

 

[mkast]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Try this.
Look around your area for the local technical college or even high school for a nighttime basic engine class. Most have all the equipment to do all the machining on the engine. The class costs about $80-$100. In sixteen weeks you'll have an engine ready to run, you'll know it better than ever, your cost will be minimal.

 

[dry dock]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

i am also a 470 owner i say if it is within your abiltys go fore it i will ask you alot of questions if i need to do the same thing. had mine since 06 still runs good. i do all my owne work also, post your progress good luck.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I'm looking a a couple of engine rebuild/piston kits on ebay. They include all the gaskets, crank and piston bearings, pistons, rings, etc for about $380.

They have Victor-Reinz gaskets, Perfect Circle or Hastings rings, Speed-Pro or Federal Mogul hypereutectic pistons (doesn't Fed. Mog. own Spd-Pro?), Clevite bearings.

Seem like good kits.

I questioned one fellow about the OEM Mercruiser headgasket, which everybody insists is crucial. He said he guaranteed that either Fel-Pro or Victor made the gaskets for Mercury. Don'tcha hate paying double just for a name?

 

[gadget73]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Most OEM's use a gasket made by someone else. Its usually not within their intrests to set up a whole division of the company to make gaskets when they can simply outsource the task to a company that already does that. Fel-Pro is Federal Mogul and Victor Reinz is the Dana brand, both companies are huge and have their fingers in a lot of pies. I've never been hung up on buying the OE branded gasket, as long as the replacement gasket is correct for the application. Thats where it gets a little tricky. You probably can't just stick a big block Ford head gasket on there and expect it to work right. Theres likely some special gasket made to allow for the different materials in the head and block. You really need to be sure its what belongs there, not just what fits there.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

You probably can't just stick a big block Ford head gasket on there and expect it to work right. Theres likely some special gasket made to allow for the different materials in the head and block. You really need to be sure its what belongs there, not just what fits there.

I was talking about the two marine options I've seen: Quicksilver and Sierra. This ebay gasket kit is made by Victor-Reinz. If I get that kit, I'll just compare it to my old gasket. If in doubt I'll get the stupid Quicksilver head gasket, which is twice as much as Sierra's which are both probably made by Victor or Fel-Pro.

Wonder if being bored .020 oversize is going to have any effect on the gasket. I've read about head gaskets for oversize bore applications in other forums, but haven't seen any actual parts.

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I'd personally opt for the fel-pro gasket if it is available....I dont really care for victor gaskets at all....

but then again that is my choice and I have tried others and always went back to fel-pro...never had an issue yet...

there should be plenty of room for boring and the gasket fitting okay...a place to check would be the old gasket...did the sealing ring go all the way to the edge of the cylinder wall...?

if not chances are you will be fine...

 

[jtybt]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Think about asking your machinist what he thinks about getting a quench. That's the distance between the top of the piston and the head.

Don't buy head gaskets until you get an answer. I always get my block decked to keep within quench parameters. I always build a marine engine to run on regular gas so the little things are important.

 

[Alumarine]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Go to http://www.breezeworks.net and search the forums for head gasket info.

Heads and head gaskets are a gotcha area when it comes to assembling this motor.

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

the quench is only necessarily important when compression is over 10.5:1 and detonation may be an issue...

Quench is basically controlling the flame front as to not pre-ignite the gasses...

1 more thing I forgot earlier and is real important...if you opt for Hyperutectic pistons you WILL need to cut the ring gaps...you will need to open them up quite a bit...more so for an engine that sees higher rpm....

the silicone in the pistons transfers the heat absorption from the piston to the rings...if you dont cut them they can/will seize.....