3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

mwnitz

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Hi,

I have a 2005 Ebbtide 180 with a Mercury 3.0 inboarb/outboard with a carb that has TKS (turn key system). After it sits for over a week it cranks excessively. If I dump some fuel into the carb directly it will start. I need assistance troubleshooting this problem. I removed the fuel enrichment valve and gave it 12V power and ground, and it did nothing whatsoever. Can someone help me with specific troubleshooting on this?

Note: I used to be in the automotive field, so I am mechanically inclined.

Thanks.
 
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JustJason

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

sounds like the carb is leaking internally which is funny because the 3.0l carbs usually don't do that.
 

Bt Doctur

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

Gotta love all the new fangled S#@T. Whatever happed to the old way of just pumping the throttle a few times and then turning the key.Along with that the computer controlled access panels that run 12 things with 5 wires and a chip. Salt air and printed circuits. Whats next "GMAB" (Get Me a Beer)
My choice, rip it all out and go back in time
 

JustJason

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

You still should pump the throttle twice before you crank with TKS.
 

Fun Times

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

Hi,

I have a 2005 Ebbtide 180 with a Mercury 3.0 inboarb/outboard with a carb that has TKS (turn key system). After it sits for over a week it cranks excessively. If I dump some fuel into the carb directly it will start. I need assistance troubleshooting this problem. I removed the fuel enrichment valve and gave it 12V power and ground, and it did nothing whatsoever. Can someone help me with specific troubleshooting on this?

Note: I used to be in the automotive field, so I am mechanically inclined.

Thanks.
Just curious, Did this just start happing out of the blue on you? You will want to try to order a small service manual #41 I believe, That manual will go over "that" carb only in detail. The way you start the engine is turn the key on to IGN only [no crank] wait 2 seconds turn off then back on then crank it, If it still dose not fire off then the manual said to pump it 2 times while cranking if needed.
 

mwnitz

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

I got Mercruiser manual #41 that deals specifically with the TKS system. I pulled out the fuel enrichment module and bench tested it. I gave it 12V DC directly for about 13 minutes. The module expanded just like it is supposed to. So I guess I am getting a bit of fuel evaporating from the bowl after sitting a week. I crank the throttle twice while cranking and it seems to help.
 

vegasphotoman

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

my 3.0 (its 1990) carburated, always starts easy...but I always pump the throttle atleast once, that way it squirts some fuel and resets the CHOKE...

I believe its because after ya run em and shut em down hot / warm etc, the choke can stay open due to the design of the carb linkage layout..so it needs a pump to relieve the choke arm of any pressure from the throttle........ and it resets to full choked position

chome in and correct me if I may be wrong ...anyone

thats my 2 cents! and PS since it isnt a EFI engine, it still needs the old fashioned pump the gas once or twice like the old Chevelles / Mustangs etc
a new carb is like an old carb! except cleaner!
 

JustJason

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

TKS carbs start just like every other carb out there. When cold 2 full pumps of the throttle then hold at 1/3rd open, and then crank it up. If everything else is in tune, I betcha it starts up every single time if you do it the way I just mentioned.
 

blouderback

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

I have Mercruiser's 5.0L version of the TKS. It's crap. From the very beginning, it never really worked when stone cold (sitting for more than a couple of days). I've found that if I pump to WOT twice, then set the throttle at 1/3 open, it starts from stone cold in about 3-5 seconds of cranking. Every time. When warm or semi-cold (sitting less than 24 hours), the TKS works fine.
 

JustJason

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

I've found that if I pump to WOT twice, then set the throttle at 1/3 open, it starts from stone cold in about 3-5 seconds of cranking

The other thing I forgot to mention is every engine is a little different. 2 pumps is fine for most. But some bigger blocks may start quicker with 3 pumps, or even 4. The idea is to add enough gas to richen the mixture, but not so much as to flood the motor. People with carbed motors should experement and see what works best for them, 1, 2, 3, 4 pumps etc.
 

mwnitz

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

The TKS carbs don't have a choke. The TKS module replaces the choke system. I must admit that I was not pumping twice. I do have a beef with the manual. It says to turn ignition on for 2 seconds, then turn off, then crank. Isn't this for electric fuel pumps? My manual says I have an electric fuel pump, but I don't! It's bolted on the side of the engine block, no wiring going to it at all. It looks like any other manually operated Carter fuel pump. Grrrrrrrrrr......
 

Fun Times

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

The TKS carbs don't have a choke. The TKS module replaces the choke system. I must admit that I was not pumping twice. I do have a beef with the manual. It says to turn ignition on for 2 seconds, then turn off, then crank. Isn't this for electric fuel pumps? My manual says I have an electric fuel pump, but I don't! It's bolted on the side of the engine block, no wiring going to it at all. It looks like any other manually operated Carter fuel pump. Grrrrrrrrrr......
No, TKS has nothing to do with the fuel pump it's self, It's just a diffrent style carb mainly. On EFI engines the fuel pump will turn on for a few seconds when you turn the key on to build Fuel pressure in the fuel rail before start up. With this system they ask you to do the same thing a few times to be able to shoot fuel in to the engine before start up is all. Also see this link for some of the same info if you would like. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=360860
 

mwnitz

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

Thanks Boat Tech. However, I am still confused. If I have a manual fuel pump, how does cycling the key on and off help shoot fuel in my engine? I do not have EFI, nor do I have an electric fuel pump. What am I missing? I could understand if I had an electric fuel pump. Thanks for helping me clear this up.

Pics of fuel pump below.

-MW
 

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jmarty10

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

3 pumps on my 4.3l TKS and it starts right up. No pumps when its warm.
 

Fun Times

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

Thanks Boat Tech. However, I am still confused. If I have a manual fuel pump, how does cycling the key on and off help shoot fuel in my engine? I do not have EFI, nor do I have an electric fuel pump. What am I missing? I could understand if I had an electric fuel pump. Thanks for helping me clear this up.

Pics of fuel pump below.

-MW
Easy, The design Was ment for as soon as you turn the key on, The fuel that should Be/Hopefully is still left inside the fuel bowl of the carb will automatically shoot a shot of fuel to inrichten the engine with fuel before cranking the engine over, To try to eliminate the need to pump the throttle As much, But in some cases they now know it did not work out as well as they had hoped it would of, I believe. So really it has nothing to do with getting the fuel from the fuel filter Through the pump and to the carb at key up, It just shoots what's left inside the carb at key up is all, And it has been reported to work better in some cases if you could take the time to try to key up at least two times before cranking.:)
 

JustJason

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

will automatically shoot a shot of fuel to inrichten the engine with fuel before cranking the engine over

Whaaa???? Don't mean to ruffle your feathers but have you even seen a TKS carb Boat Teck?

They don't shoot anything. It's not an actuator thats attached to a seperate accelerator pump or anything. (although that's probably how they should have did it, or really just bit the bullet, get with the times, and put a TBI on it) It's nothing more than a housing, a wax pellet, and a pintle on a spring.

When the engine is cold, a spring keeps the pintle open, an allows extra fuel to be drawn into the system to enrichen the mixture. As the engine is running, electricity heats up the wax, the wax expands and closes the pintle, and leans out the mixture for a warm engine. It works pretty much the exact same way as Yamaha's prime start. It works better on Yam's outboards because the on board computer (YMIS) has different base timing settings for warm and cold engines. If Merc altered the ignition system to advace the timing a bit while the engine is cold, and retard it when it is warm, TKS may work a littler better than it does now.

All and all... TKS is a marketing ploy that is nothing more than Merc taking out the old fashion choke plate and replacing it with a thermoelectric valve. Both systems enrichen the mixture for cold engines. With the choke plate customers would mess with it while under warranty and dealers would be fixing them for free under warranty (or billing Merc to fix it), with TKS its impossable for a customer to screw with it.
Both do the same thing.... Which on works better? Who knows... the choke plate system doesn't make that gawd awful I think I have an air leak whislte though.

So that's how TKS works, TKS is just an enrichening mechanism, nothing to fancey about it. Still need to pump your throttle to get it to start correctly.

As far as cycling the key... Who knows on that one as well... probably a typo between the engineering dept and the english owners manual writers dept.
 

mwnitz

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

Aha. So far that's the only plausible explanation I've heard as to why they tell me to cycle the key. Cycling the key has no effect on this carbeurator with a mechanical fuel pump. I could see if it's an electric pump.... cycling the key would turn on the fuel pump and build up fuel pressure. But they really had a big typo with my mechanical pump.
 

Fun Times

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Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

You are right jason I should not have said shoot fuel in at key up, It was just easier to say it that way to help give out an idea of how it works with out writing it all out, So for the "OP" I just went and copyed the theory of how the system really works to make it even easier. By the way Jason did you like the PM I sent you or did I ruffle your feathers with it:p???

Turn Key Start: Theory of Operation
The TKS system has been added to carbureted engines to:
? Provide additional fuel to air mixture when starting a cold engine. Idle speed is slightly
increased by supplying the additional fuel / air mixture required to start a cold engine.
? Prevent enrichment when starting a warm engine.
COMPONENTS
1. The TKS carburetor casting allows starting fuel to be drawn from the float bowl and
mixed with air in a chamber. This enriched mixture is drawn into the engine through an
opening in the carburetor body below the throttle plate.
2. The TKS module mounted to the carburetor. When 12V DC is applied, the TKS module
will warm internally, causing a plunger to extend from the module and close the
enrichment fuel air passage in the TKS carburetor.
3. On 3.0L engines, an oil pressure switchprovides a ground (-) path for the TKS module.
Positive (+) voltage is continuously supplied through a 20 amp fuse directly from the
engine circuit breaker.
4. On V-6 and V-8 engines an existing oil pressure switch provides 12V positive (+)
voltage to the TKS module. Ground for the TKS module is continuously supplied.
TKS SYSTEM OPERATION
The TKS Carburetor assembly provides precise fuel and air delivery during startup for all
temperature conditions. An electrothermal valve, the TKS module, is installed on the
carburetor assembly.
Before startup and according to ambient temperature, the TKS Module brass sleeve
retracts, and the enrichment fuel and air valve is opened.
The TKS fuel / air passage is normally open, allowing fuel enrichment mixture through the
carburetor continuously, unless the passage is blocked by the plunger of the TKS module.
With the key switch in the start position, the vacuum of the engine pulls the enrichment fuel
and air into the intake manifold.This starts an electrical warming of the module.
With the circuit completed, the electrothermal TKS module brass plunger extends to block
the enrichment passage.
Once the TKS module brass sleeve is fully extended, the enrichment fuel and valve are
fully closed, and enrichment stops.
In order to keep the TKS module warming and the starting channel in the carburetor closed
when engine is warm a second circuit has been added. For additional information, see the
"Typical Starting System Components" in Section 4A for your particular engine type.
TKS Starting Characteristics
On 3.0 L models - If the engine has not run for a long period of time, it might require a
couple of attempts while the fuel bowl refills. Once the engine has started, it will idle at
700-900 RPM.
On 4.3 L, 5.0 L, and 5.7L models - If the engine has not run for a long period of time, it
might require a couple of attempts while the fuel bowl refills. Once the engine is started, it
will idle around 650 to 700 RPM in idle stabilization mode. If the idle exceeds 700 RPM,
the ECM adds spark, thinking that the operator is trying to accelerate, which could cause
the engine to idle at 700-900 RPM. After the TKS module has shut off the enrichment circuit,
the carburetor will function like a standard carburetor. If the engine is out of idle stabilization
mode, (engine below 700 RPM), you will hear and feel a slight drop in RPM. After the TKS
module has shut off the enrichment passage, the carburetor will function like a standard
carburetor.
Troubleshooting
90-866202 DECEMBER 2004 Page 1C-3
NOTE: When the ambient temperature is -17 - 55? C (0?-50?F), normal engine idle should
be 650-700 RPM in idle stabilization mode.
When the ambient temperature is 10-55? C (50? - 130 ?F), normal engine idle should be
700-900 RPM and exceed the idle stabilization mode, moving into the run spark mode.
Once the enrichment circuit shuts off, the engine will idle at 650 RPM (Idle Stabilization
Mode.)
TKS Special Information
1. There will be a hissing sound for 6 to 10 minutes as the module is warming and the
enrichment channel is being closed.
2. The base gasket on the TKS carburetor is different from the old base gaskets
3. V-6 and V-8 engines use a spacer plate between the carburetor and manifold. The
gaskets have the same part number. The plastic spacer has not been changed and still
has the divider between the carburetor throats.
4. A special tool (PN 91-866201) is available to allow for adjusting the idle mixture on TKS
carburetors. The new adjustable idle mixture screw has a 16? taper and the special cap
has been C.A.R.B. approved to allow mixture adjustment only by dealers using the
special tool. The new taper will provide a finer adjustment.
Idle Mixture Adjusting Tool Part Number
9668
PN-91-866201
5. Do not make any adjustments of idle speed and/or idle mixture unless engine is
thoroughly warm and the TKS enrichment is completely shut off.
6. Generation 1 and Generation 2 carburetors function the same, and there is only a slight
difference in the location of the TKS passage within the body.
7. 3.0L engines will only have Generation 2 carburetors, while V-6 and V-8 engines will
have Generation1 and Generation 2 carburetors.
8. Refer to the parts book for proper service components.
Troubleshooting
TKS Troubleshooting
NORMAL STARTING PROCEDURE
1. Check all items listed in Operation Chart.
2. Place the remote control handle in neutral.
! CAUTION
Overheating from insufficient cooling water will cause engine and drive system damage.
Ensure that there is sufficient water always available at water inlet holes during operation.
Troubleshooting
Page 1C-4 90-866202 DECEMBER 2004
! WARNING
Explosive gasoline fumes collect in the engine compartment. Avoid injury or property
damage, operate the bilge blower for at least 5 minutes prior to starting the engine. If the
boat is not equipped with a bilge blower, open the engine hatch and leave it open while
starting the engine.
3. Turn ignition key to START. Release key when engine starts and allow switch to return
to ON position.
4. Allow engine to warm up (6-10 minutes on first start of the day). The engine will initially
idle at 650-900 RPM and then return to normal idle RPM for the engine.
Normal Engine Idle Specifications Idle in Neutral Idle in Gear
3.0 L 800 RPM 750 RPM
4.3 L, 5.0 L, and 5.7 L 650 RPM 650 RPM
5. If the engine does not start after 3 attempts:
a. Push the throttle only button and position the remote control throttle lever to the
1/4 throttle position.
b. Turn ignition key to START. Release key when engine starts and allow switch to
return to ON position.
6. If engine does not start after step 5:
a. Move the remote control throttle lever to full throttle position, then return to the 1/
4 throttle position.
b. Turn ignition key to START. Release key when engine starts and allow switch to
return to ON position.
7. Inspect the power package for fuel, oil, water and exhaust leaks.
8. To shift into gear, move control handle with a firm, quick motion forward to shift to
forward gear, or backward to shift to reverse. After shifting drive unit, advance throttle
to desired setting.
! CAUTION
Never attempt to shift unit unless engine is at idle RPM. Damage to transmission could
occur.
9. Move the remote control handle to neutral and throttle lever to idle. Allow the engine to
slow to idle speed. If engine has been operated at high speed for a long period of time,
allow the engine to cool at idle speed for 3 to 5 minutes.
10. Turn ignition key to the OFF position.
HARD START - COLD
1. If the engine does not start after third attempt, verify the following:
a. There is sufficient fuel and the fuel shut off valve is open.
b. Ignition system is functioning.
Assuming that the carburetor is the cause of the hard starting condition, the probable cause
will be that the additional fuel flow path is not functioning properly. To get the engine started:
1. Push the throttle only button.
2. Move the remote control throttle lever to full throttle position and then to the idle position.
Do this two times.
3. Place throttle at 1/4 position (throttle only)
4. Attempt to start engine again
Troubleshooting
90-866202 DECEMBER 2004 Page 1C-5
5. If engine still does not start, refer to "Engine Does Not Start."
HARD START - HOT
If the engine does not start when the engine is hot, the probable cause of hard hot-restarts
associated with the TKS carburetor will be the inadvertent opening of the additional fuel
flow path. The temperature switch was added to the system to keep power to the TKS
module to prevent the additional fuel flow path from opening during hot re-starts.
1. Check coolant temperature.
2. If the coolanttemperature is above 43? ? 3? C (110? ?8? F):
a. Verify that 12 Volts Positive (+) and ground (-) are getting to the TKS module. See
Section 4G for details.
b. Operation of the TKS module can be confirmed by placing your finger on the end
of the plastic TKS housing in the center and feeling that the electric heater is
getting warm. A warm TKS module after engine has run for 6 to 10 minutes
confirms that TKS is functioning electrically. See Section 4G for details.
3. Verify that the TKS Module is functioning normally. Follow procedure in Section 4G.
ENGINE DOES NOT START
The possible root causes of the fuel path not functioning include:
? The TKS Module failed in the closed position. See Section 4G and Section 5G.
? The fuel has varnished. See Section 5B.
? There is debris in the fuel path. See Section 5B.
? The float level is out of specification. See Section 5B.
If the engine does not start, check the following:
1. Check that float bowl is full of fuel.
2. Check that the mechanical fuel pump is working. Attach a fuel pressure gauge to the
mechanical fuel pump to verify it is working correctly.
3. Check the enrichment jet emulsion tube, TKS enrichment jet, and the main jets for
damage or debris.
ENGINE DOES NOT IDLE CORRECTLY
If the engine does not idle correctly after starting, verify that the enrichment cycle is fully
closed before adjusting checking the following:
1. The engine idle RPM has been set correctly with a warm engine.
2. Verify the timing of the engine in the base timing mode.
3. Verify there is voltage on the Packard connector attached to the TKS heater.
4. Check the enrichment jet, emulsion tube, and the main jets for damage or debris.
HISSING NOISE
There is a small enrichment air passage for the TKS system in the throat of the carburetor.
Air is drawn through this passage when TKS is in starting mode and does create a slight
whistle or hissing noise. After 6 to 10 minutes when engine has warmed and TKS system
has closed the noise will quit and will only occur again after a cold engine start. If this noise
continues after 10 minutes, this could indicate a problem with the TKS module. See Section
5B.
 

cribber

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Messages
1,338
Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

I have a 2008 Penta 3.0l and pump the throttle three times quickly and it starts up every time. Once it's warmed up just need to hit the ket for a sec and off we go.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: 3.0 Mercury with TKS hard starting when sitting for over a week.

TKS, Turn Key Starting.
worked well in theroy, had issues in actual application.
in theory you Turned the Key and it started.
in actuallity it did not work so well.
yes the yamaha prime start worked a bit better but mostly due to other engine paremeters being modified as well as simply air to fuel ratio.
the TKS is a fairly simple system but even when working correctly some engines needed a few pumps on the throttle only after sitting a few weeks to start,AT IDLE ONLY, and run.
most TKS systems wont start properly if the throttle shutter is open or improperly adjusted,same as the yamaha prime start.
I have seen techs misadgust the throttle shutter attempting to mask other running issues only to have to boat back with cold start issues. same as the yamaha prime start.
 
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