Fuel Injection

[TilliamWe]

Re: Fuel Injection

Oh, and the Holley setup is garbage...ask anyone that has used it...they end up on Ebay.

That is kinda what degree was trying to find out. So do you know any specifics, or is that just what you've "heard"?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Fuel Injection

nervous nellie?
nope
Professional technician with a 4 million dollar general liability policy that sets me back about 4000 a year? yep
while its nice work no shop I know would touch it unless it was for competition use only, the rules change a bit then.
IF by some chance something went wrong your liability,if ya actually have it,would most likly pay,however they would most likly sue you to recollect.}
in todays world of honest polititians,kind lawyers and santa clause, I will place my trust in santa, at least he exists.

here in Venezuela it would work as what few rules exist are ignored and there is no real legal system,if it runs. run it.

 

[Mkos1980]

Re: Fuel Injection

That is kinda what degree was trying to find out. So do you know any specifics, or is that just what you've "heard"?

There is a post on the internet posting the specifics. Apparently Holleys return of defence for poor starting and so forth was that for best reliabilty and performance they needed you to run it in closed loop. I will try to tfind the link for you.


If he were to run a gasketed dis cap, steel fuel lines to be compliant and a merc style fuel pump setup what would be wrong with this setup. What would cause an explosion. You know for a fact hes not going to install the ecm right on the motor. Hes going to have it vented in a cooler area.

I am willing to bet theres more of a chance of explosion due to a poor sparkplug wire arching on somebodys boat.

 

[Mkos1980]

Re: Fuel Injection

I'm accually working on an EFI setup now that using a ramjet setup running the 411 OBD2 ECM with the merc crab style distributor. Indmar used this same intake setup before and it worked well. I also know that Indmar used the LT1 setup as well. I'll try to post up a few pics when I get it done. Should be end of this year.

 

[96lt4c4]

Re: Fuel Injection

96 that looks like some fine work that you did. The people here do not mean to bash you, but rather point out one serious liability that you have opened yourself up to. If you were able to figure out how to do the swap, then you could also figure out what changes you would have to make for it to meet CG specs. It would certainly be worthwhile looking into.

Have a great day,

Rob.

Thanks, I believe I will take a look at the CG specs, I will try to get it as close as I can.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Fuel Injection

You know, this is done all the time.

Nothing happens until something happens.


But here's the scenario, (now maybe you're not going to use this boat to pull the kids wake-boarding) but work with me here.

You're out on the lake pulling the kids and their "down-the-street" friends.

You start for the last time to "take her in" to the ramp and "boom".... explosion in the eng compartment that kills one of the friends down the street. (because she was sitting on the back on the eng cover and falls in the water, hits her head falling and drowns)


Now, the blood sucking, ambulance chasing lawyer (sort of like a certain one running for the DEM nomination) discovers that your engine installation is not CG certified. .....IN FACT he/she discovers that there are SEVERAL violations under the hood!

He/she also discovers by getting a court order to the owners of this website that you are not only violating federal law, but you know it (read your quoted admission of guilt below)

I can tell you right now that your insurance company might probably pay a liability payment up to a point. BUT they usually have disclaimers that exempt them if you are found to have been criminally negligent. Also, you can bet that when there's loss of life, the damages will probably exceed your liability limits. The civil damages would probably be higher and probably not covered either.....I donno. IANAL (I am not a lawyer)


In some states, they cannot take your house (I think that's the case in WA) but you could have an almost permanent judgment against you after you get out of jail, for the rest of your life to pay for federal fines and reparations to the deceased family.

I wouldn't take a chance like that.....But that's just me!



Cheers,



Rick

*****snip*****

You guys can bash it all you want for not being CG certified, I am going to run it anyway

Oh, and the Holley setup is garbage...ask anyone that has used it...they end up on Ebay.

 

[Mkos1980]

Re: Fuel Injection

Heh? If he uses metal fuel lines and the gasketed cap, can you please tell me what gfoing to spark an explosion. I'd like to know.

Yea , I feel really safe with the fuel pump overflow hose being rubber. Lets see that sucker melt on the motor leaking gas into the bilge and then an explosion. How is that GC compliant. Yeaaaa right.

Instead of people saying how people are going to die. PLEASE EXPLAIN whats going to ignite it. I dont see one thing except the cap. Besides thats there are maybe 4-5 sensors. Thats it.

 

[Robj]

Re: Fuel Injection

Thanks, I believe I will take a look at the CG specs, I will try to get it as close as I can.

What I really like about this forum is about people helping each other with advice. I have learned a great deal from here. In this case, 96 did some excellent work, however it does have some serious shortcomings as have been identified and brought to his attention. Based on the above quote, 96 recognizes this and will hopefully rectify them, in which case we have done our job.

Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[tommays]

Re: Fuel Injection

"Each Pro-Billet Marine Distributor features two flame arrestor holes with brass screens. This prevents the ignition of gas fumes that may build up in the engine compartment."


MSD and Mallory have both found the need to build a proper aftermarket Distributor for GM and FORD



They make and EFI(Late Model GM, EFI-PN 8366) version as well as ones with spring advance so people can make a safe repiar or upgrade


Tommays

 

[96lt4c4]

Re: Fuel Injection

IANAL (I am not a lawyer)

Then don't try to give me legal advise.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Fuel Injection

he isnt giving legal advice, mostly fact.
so far I have been called as an expert witness for nationwide and progressive on just such cases, no injuriy or loss of life just the insurance company did not wish to pay.
as an expert witness I had no opinion just a service manual, the ABYC standards book and the USCG regulations pertanant to the case.
I guess I am a ***** but I really dont care who pays my 45/hr.
but read up on the regs and I am fairly sure you could make the set up compliant.
nothing in the books restricts a fuel return to the tank. there are certain rules as to what type of fuel lines can be used where and how they must be supported.
some of its inane I know but it is what it is.
if you have ever seen a corperate lawyer in court you will know what I mean.
and my Ex wife thought I was nasty.
so far only one death in my area, few years back a guy blew himself out of the boat. he was alive until he landed on the ramp at Oregon inlet fishing center, the broken neck was the only injury he sustained.
bad thing was his wife and 2 kids witnessed it on the first day of their vacation on the outer banks.
most sensors as well as the ign module are sealed and less than 5 volts. its the sparks from anything else that gets ya.
as most marine manifolds are water cooled,by law if its in an engine box, hot exhaust usually isnt a factor.
the rubber hose,up to you to maintan the integrity. in fact its mentioned in YOUR owners manual as a routine check.
but if the mechanical pump fails it will start dumping exess fuel into the carb causing stalling and rough running at low speeds, hopefully alerting the loose nut behind the helm that something is amiss.

 

[watermellonI]

Re: Fuel Injection

Yes, check the regs, and get it right there are some of us (me for one) who would love to be next to you at the dock and hear that baby fire up,

 

[newport dave]

Re: Fuel Injection

96lt,
I actually think your project is very interesting, but the concerns voiced here are legitimate. If I could make a suggestion, sell what you got and buy a used marine MPI setup. A MEFI 1 system would work fine. Look into a software program called "MEFI Burn", which allows you to use Tuner Pro to recal the MEFI controller. Then make all the internal engine mods you want, work on your tune, and have fun and be safe.

Dave

 

[96lt4c4]

Re: Fuel Injection

The fuel line that I am using is high pressure fuel injection hose. It is not standard low pressure carb style fuel hose. The hose clamps are also EFI clamps that are a solid steel band with a screw and nut to tighten it up, not the style clamp that is used on water lines like the ones in my pictures. I am also using stainless braided hose with -6 AN fittings to connect the 2 fuel rails together. Everything is routed as close to the factory location as possible, and is tied up nice and neat. I will take some more recent pictures...

One thing I noticed about the factory rubber fuel line, that was under the floor to the fuel tank, was that it was cheap hose. It does not have the reinforcement the EFI line does.

Oh, the EFI hose is way more expensive, like a $3-4 a foot.

 

[degree]

Re: Fuel Injection

96lt; very interesting set-up. Let me know what (and if) is done to make it compliant.

Newport Dave; I'm interested in more information on the setup you mentioned. Can you shed a bit more light on it? You can e-mail me directly, if you wish: ramman99@comcast.net

 

[mikeneal]

Re: Fuel Injection

Interesting post and I am hoping the author keeps us posted on the project as time goes by. I have deep appreciation for the efforts and technical aspects of the project, good stuff for sure. I will add my name to the list of people encouraging him to get it USCG complaint. I am no doubts to the quality of his work and attention to detail per his postings but fuel leaks are sometimes caused by things outside you control. I have a friend that also was very detail oriented and always did things "by the book" and had a small pin hole corrode in the fuel tank. Stuff happens and you do not always have the ability to eliminate those things with good mechanical practices.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Fuel Injection

There was NO legal advice in my previous post.....

I will offer some general advice though.

Once you're all up and running you should disclose everything you did to your boat to your own insurance company (you do have insurance don't you?) and get a written agreement from them that they will cover you in the event of a "Kaboom".....

They (and the boat cops) are the only ones you have to convince that you're compliant.

Then don't try to give me legal advise.

 

[newport dave]

Re: Fuel Injection

96lt; very interesting set-up. Let me know what (and if) is done to make it compliant.

Newport Dave; I'm interested in more information on the setup you mentioned. Can you shed a bit more light on it? You can e-mail me directly, if you wish.

I was thinking about doing pretty much exactly what 96lt has done, but just using take-off marine components instead of automotive.

The biggest challenge in doing this is tuning the ECM calibration to work with the engine mods you have made. This is a difficult task unless your a seasoned tuner with the engine on a dyno. Doing it for the first time with the engine in the boat with no O2 sensor or EGT feedback is likely to end badly.

96lt used an automotive ECM. They are available cheap and there is free software (Tuner Pro) and Definition files available to recalibrate them. Marine (MEFI) ECM's can also be recalibrated using the same Tuner Pro software, but you also need the MEFIBurn software and MEFI Definition files which are pretty expensive (about $600).

So if your not looking for a new career as a marine EFI tuner, or intend to hire an expert to tune the ECM for you, your only options are to buy a complete aftermaket coversion kit intended for marine use that includes calibration files for your exact engine specs, or build the engine around the ECM calibration. The latter meaning that you know the exact engine specs (cam, heads, injectors, fuel pressure, ect, ect) the ECM was originally intended to be used with and duplicating that setup.

Dave

 

[tommays]

Re: Fuel Injection

"The fuel line that I am using is high pressure fuel injection hose."

These are both high quality Aeroquip Hoses and while you may think the shiny one is better in fact the blue has the wire and the FIRE rating as well as the fittings to make and approved line and also has a 1500 PSI working pressure in 3/8 line

Construction: AQP? elastomer tube, brass plated steel wire reinforcement, braided refractory insulation and blue AQP? elastomer cover.

If you look you will find everything in CG approved materials VS things you think will be good



Tommays

 

[Mkos1980]

Re: Fuel Injection

It appears the GLM aluminum manifolds have 02 bungs in each manifold over the 1st and 2nd cylinders. I'm going to be using those when tuning with EFI Live. I can tune it to the computer uses only 1 02 and the other bung can be used for a AF ratio monitor.