1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

fireicyhott

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Okay have all kinds of theories here.

What I will do: verify speed with GPS, verify RPM with seperate tach, make marks on nut to check for slippage, and report back.

I do know that it is not 42mph by the feel of the boat.

I have used the trim on the outdrive and of course my trim tabs are all the way up after planing out to gain maximum speed.

Not sure of my gear ratio, is that in the book? The boat came with 3 props, 2 aluminum and one SS, all the same pitch 15x17.

What is puzzling is that my uncle who had the boat says last year in water he did 42mph. Not sure how reliable this is.

Anyway thanks for the comments and any suggestions appreciated. Will try those things and report back.

Thanks,

Jeff in NC
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

5K rpm outa a straight 6??? yeah maybe in a bmw..
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

5K rpm outa a straight 6??? yeah maybe in a bmw..

Are you referring to my statement? The normal rpm range for most Mercruiser I/O's is 4200-4600rpm,,, you think a freshly rebuilt 250cu in/165hp 2bbl Chevy 6 in an 18' boat with no bottom paint can't do 5k rpm? Wrong!
 

QC

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

I found it as a 1.41:1 ratio . . . Could've been changed though. Oh, oh, try all three props.
 

whywhyzed

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

5K rpm outa a straight 6??? yeah maybe in a bmw..
I don't think the BMW's turn any faster than North American sterndrives. 4200-4600 sorta thing. The online owner's manuals are in German but they can be downloaded for yours, Jason.
SternDriveInstallcoverthumb.jpg
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm... last i time i checked the service manual it spec'd 3900-4300 for the straight 6.
but whatever dude... its your valves, not mine.
i don't know what tach your using but i don't see how an inline 6 will spin 5k under a load without shaking itself to pieces.

ps~when i said bmw... i meant bmw's straight 6 automotive engines. the newest of the new redline at 7k....
pps~unless your building professional motors for a living.. spinning anything with a pushrod up to and over 5k is risky business... let alone in a boat motor
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm... last i time i checked the service manual it spec'd 3900-4300 for the straight 6.
but whatever dude... its your valves, not mine.
i don't know what tach your using but i don't see how an inline 6 will spin 5k under a load without shaking itself to pieces.

ps~when i said bmw... i meant bmw's straight 6 automotive engines. the newest of the new redline at 7k....
pps~unless your building professional motors for a living.. spinning anything with a pushrod up to and over 5k is risky business... let alone in a boat motor

Well, I don't know dude, Were you there? if not then can it! Just because the book says 3900-4100rpm, it doesn't mean that's max rpm, and the motor can't go to 5k or more! It can go to whatever rpm for the horsepower it's producing, or lifter pump up, or valve float, but I would expect that at maybe 6k or more,,, if (as I figure) it uses the same lifters as the Chevy V8's and No, it won't shake itself to pieces, under load, or not, unless there was an unusual balance defect? and the BMW motors, I'm not familiar with, nor do I care, but I'd venture to say they probably are an overhead cam motor, that normally can rev higher then an overhead valve motor.
 

QC

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Why in the flyin' flip are we talking aout straight 6 anythings? BTW, Inline 6 engines are perfectly balanced naturally ;)
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Why in the flyin' flip are we talking aout straight 6 anythings? BTW, Inline 6 engines are perfectly balanced naturally ;)
Because QC I was minding my own business, but called a liar, in public, Sorry if it offends but I don't take lightly to that, and need to get my point across. Anything further I'll deal with it PM wise.
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm... liar... that's your word, not mine :)~ but i still dont' believe your spinning a straight 6 to 5K rpms.

let's look at some of the posts you've started
1. you have a force :(
2. it takes you from august 10th to sept 9th (according to your posts) to get such force to hold a reliable idle
3. you don't know that steering cables are non-serviceable
4. you don't know how to wire a tach
5. you don't know how to find a model/serial #

now... by no means am i calling you a liar... but com'n man.. the proof is in the posts. That's like basic basic stuff... they never made them more easy than force... its like 40 year old technology.
first you argued with don on this thread, and now me. Don call's bull hockey on you and i do to!!! We all see through your shenanigans!!!!!!!!
 

BuzzM

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Just my two cents, I fooled around with a slow boat for over a year. It is a sunrunner 245 with a GM 5.7 and weighs a ton. It would slow down and even
" blow out " occasionally at high rpm. I tried a " different " prop from the old
15x19 ( not new ), worried over the coupler, etc. Finally, I hauled it and cleaned and painted the bottom which made a difference. But, I broke down and bought a new Amita Solas 15.25 x 17 prop, and it had it's old spirit back. I went from a GPS of 30 mph at 4200 rpm wot to 44 mph GPS.
Then, I remembered the day earlier in the year when I had trouble backing it out of the slip, gave it more r.p.m.s and after hearing a weird screeching noise, unwrapped a piece of ski rope from the lower unit. That only happened for about 5 seconds. But I think I started the hub cooking then, and it got worse.
One other note.. my old tach occasional needs to have the setting screw clicked back & forth to get a true reading, due to age / corrosion. Just another piece of my puzzle.
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm... liar... that's your word, not mine :)~ but i still dont' believe your spinning a straight 6 to 5K rpms.

let's look at some of the posts you've started
1. you have a force :(
2. it takes you from august 10th to sept 9th (according to your posts) to get such force to hold a reliable idle
3. you don't know that steering cables are non-serviceable
4. you don't know how to wire a tach
5. you don't know how to find a model/serial #

now... by no means am i calling you a liar... but com'n man.. the proof is in the posts. That's like basic basic stuff... they never made them more easy than force... its like 40 year old technology.
first you argued with don on this thread, and now me. Don call's bull hockey on you and i do to!!! We all see through your shenanigans!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I guess you're going through my posts to throw up dirt, and sling mud! It shows the kind of character you are. Yes, I have a Force, and it's new to me, plus I haven't had an outboard boat in about 25yrs, and mostly had evinrude, johnson, & mercury before that, and in between I had a bunch of I/O's, mostly Mercruisers, and an OMC Cobra, and they all had power steering. I was probably building motors before you were born! and I probably forgot more then you ever knew! Wake up to the real world, and come back when you learn horsepower makes rpm, & torque, the only limit to rpm is hydraulic lifters. I stand by my claim I got 5k rpm, out of a freshly rebuilt 165hp Mercruiser, on a Wellcraft airslot, with a 19" pitch prop. You insist I couldn't get 5k rpm out of a straight Chevy 6, but claim you're not calling me a liar, Then what would you call it?
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm misguided maybe.... or mis-interpreter of service manuals.... i'm starting to teeter on using the word dumb... do you prefer that over liar????

MikDee said:
I haven't had an outboard boat in about 25yrs, and mostly had evinrude, johnson, & mercury

well... force hasn't changed much in 25 years.....

mikdee said:
Wake up to the real world, and come back when you learn horsepower makes rpm, & torque

hmmm... wrong on this one too bucko. horsepower does not make anything really... except maybe your bragging rights bigger... horsepower is used more for marketing purposes than anything else... imagine if all car and boat engines drop the HP rating and just started rating in torque instead??? it would be utter madness...
HP is really just TQ applied at a measured time span.
Technically... it's torque multiplied by rotational speed (rpms) divided by 5252. so... also technically... it's torque x rpm / 5252 that EQUALS horsepower....
Mathmatically... and in a perfect world, if you had a perfectly flat TQ curve (which is impossible) and you could increase your rpms.... then yes, HP, mathmatically, would go up. However, since rpms is really dependent on TQ to start with, it's TQ that everyone should really be concerned with.

mikdee said:
the only limit to rpm is hydraulic lifters
nope nope nope.... its pushrod deflection that limits rpm in OHV engines.
later model OHV engines, such as in corvettes say. switch to a mechanical roller lifter because it is more relaible in every sense than a hydraulic lifter. it's measurements will always stay the same (relatively) and ultimately valve lash is not adjusted/effected by oil pressure.
Everything engine will bust if you over rev it.
1. in a OHV engine it's pushrods that limit rpm, when you over rev a pushrod engine its a pushrod that snaps, or gets ejected.
2. in a OHC engine it's valve springs that limit rpm. when you over rev an OHC engine it is that valves that float... and because they float, depending on design, they may contact the piston and that's what breaks.
3. in 2 stroke engine, it's the connecting rod that limits rpm. (technically, out of the factory it's usually the reed valves that limit, however when you change them out) it's the pushrod. 2 strokes will spin and spin and spin until the connecting rod stretches and the piston hits the squish band.

mikdee said:
You insist I couldn't get 5k rpm out of a straight Chevy 6, but claim you're not calling me a liar, Then what would you call it?

hmmmm... did you hook up your outboard tach to this engine???

ps~the real world is full of ego, uglyness, and war... i love living in my own little world much better thank you
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

back to the issue at hand... do you have any way to get the boat weighed fireicyhott?
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

hmmm misguided maybe.... or mis-interpreter of service manuals.... i'm starting to teeter on using the word dumb... do you prefer that over liar????



well... force hasn't changed much in 25 years.....



hmmm... wrong on this one too bucko. horsepower does not make anything really... except maybe your bragging rights bigger... horsepower is used more for marketing purposes than anything else... imagine if all car and boat engines drop the HP rating and just started rating in torque instead??? it would be utter madness...
HP is really just TQ applied at a measured time span.
Technically... it's torque multiplied by rotational speed (rpms) divided by 5252. so... also technically... it's torque x rpm / 5252 that EQUALS horsepower....
Mathmatically... and in a perfect world, if you had a perfectly flat TQ curve (which is impossible) and you could increase your rpms.... then yes, HP, mathmatically, would go up. However, since rpms is really dependent on TQ to start with, it's TQ that everyone should really be concerned with.


nope nope nope.... its pushrod deflection that limits rpm in OHV engines.
later model OHV engines, such as in corvettes say. switch to a mechanical roller lifter because it is more relaible in every sense than a hydraulic lifter. it's measurements will always stay the same (relatively) and ultimately valve lash is not adjusted/effected by oil pressure.
Everything engine will bust if you over rev it.
1. in a OHV engine it's pushrods that limit rpm, when you over rev a pushrod engine its a pushrod that snaps, or gets ejected.
2. in a OHC engine it's valve springs that limit rpm. when you over rev an OHC engine it is that valves that float... and because they float, depending on design, they may contact the piston and that's what breaks.
3. in 2 stroke engine, it's the connecting rod that limits rpm. (technically, out of the factory it's usually the reed valves that limit, however when you change them out) it's the pushrod. 2 strokes will spin and spin and spin until the connecting rod stretches and the piston hits the squish band.



hmmmm... did you hook up your outboard tach to this engine???

ps~the real world is full of ego, uglyness, and war... i love living in my own little world much better thank you

Who's the dummy here, I'm impressed, you can read? Apparently all of your knowledge is either in theory, or out of a book, not in the real world,,, I Lived It, along with using the service manuals, so I have a working knowledge of what works, and what doesn't. As I said, I had my 165hp Mercruiser up to 5k rpm, my 62' Impala SS 327/300hp 4spd up to 6k thru the gears, and my 75' Monza 262V8 5spd with a 2bbl and a new 327/350hp cam up to 7k thru the gears, the engine kept pulling, so I kept pushing (past what the book says! surprise, surprise) I would guess in your mind that's not possible, and they stayed together too! as long as you know when, & how far, to push them, imagine that! I wouldn't bother to mention it here, if it Wasn't So! because I figured there'd always be some dumbass questioning it. I am no stranger around cars, boats, and motorcycles, if you have any doubt's, check my signature link. Plus, I never bothered to look at Bayliners, or Force motors back then because of their supposed bad rep, but now that I have mine a couple of months, I don't find them so bad, & one of the simplist motors to work on, and now I have a good working knowledge of it. A lot easier then Mercruiser, or OMC, I/O's.
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

mikdee said:
I'm impressed, you can read?

yes... and i've also been told i can write fairly well too!

mikdee said:
Apparently all of your knowledge is either in theory

How is that apparent? Alternatively, I do find it quite usefull to have a good background in theory.

mikdee said:
I would guess in your mind that's not possible, and they stayed together too! as long as you know when, & how far, to push them, imagine that!

aye... i've seen v8's spin up that fast.. i won't argue with that... but they will not run at WOT all day long that fast, and last.... which is what a boat motor does. Even Nascar mechanics, who live eat and breath small block chevy's, have motor failures all the time.

mikdee said:
Plus, I never bothered to look at Bayliners, or Force motors back then because of their supposed bad rep,

and their reputation has gotten somehow better???


mikdee said:
As I said, I had my 165hp Mercruiser up to 5k rpm

if you did... and i still doubt it... not under any kind of a real load anyways. Why?
Why would you want to?
If you are you are sooooo severly underproped its not even funny.
The engine is hitting its peak power output around 4k or so, so wouldn't it make more sense to prop it accordingly to take full advantage of the power available?
 

fireicyhott

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Captn Jason,

I might be able to find a way to weigh boat but according to book it weighs 3800 lbs.

I am getting ready to go take it out. I have a GPS so I can measure speed compared to my speedometer. Might try to put on the stainless steel prop but it is also a 15x17 just like my aluminum. I will mark the prop bolt to see if it is slipping.

Will report back.

Jeff
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

jason, You can never get too much, knowledge, theory, and hands on exp. Apparently your no rookie at this either, probably thats why we butt heads with our opinion. If we could do it in a constructive way we all could benefit.

A long time ago, when I got my 62' Impala SS 327/300hp 4spd, a clean used car with only 40k miles on it, I didn't know much about cars, but learned a lot along the way over the years, this car would rev to 6K thru the gears, but ocassionally not, due to breaking up, because of point bounce or, being out of dwell range, and poor O.E. wires, & spark plugs. I never had a problem with the lifters, even back then, although my friends with Fords of the era, did. Research, and visibly checking, this engine, and vehicle revealed a few pleasant surprises, it had the 61' Corvette 283 (double hump) fuely heads, with 1:94 intake valves, 1:58 exhaust, and either 58, or 62cc chambers?, delivering 10:0X1 compression with it's notched flat top pistons, a high rise cast iron manifold with a #4309 Carter AFB large secondaries (409 carburetor), and the large rams horn exhaust manifolds with 2 1/2" dual exhausts, and the newly designed hi-lift hydraulic, short duration cam. It had the most torque of all the new to production 327 engine versions built that year, and surprisingly kept up with the earlier 283vettes on the road back then. It also had an M21 Muncie aluminum tranny, an easy on the leg hi-perf large centrifugal clutch, and a 3:36X1 posi rear. I sold it 2yrs later at a bargain price, it was pretty tired, after being my first hi-performance car, and to upgrade.


Then, About 25yrs ago, I bought my 262V8 Monza (like a mini camaro) from a girl in Queens NY, who had taken off the cat, and had dual exhausts put on, (a girl, go figure?) anyway, I found out shortly afterward that it had a worn out cam because although it appeared to run ok, it backfired a bit thru the carb, and wouldn't reach 3500rpm! after I tuned it up, it got worse!, next taking off the valve covers I noticed a few valves were hardly opening. My cam decision at the time was either a plain vanilla Chevy stock 350 cam, or a (suggested) 327/350 perf cam, from my neighbor who was a mechanic for Chevy. I knew all the specs, and at the toss of a coin went with my quest for performance, (in hindsight, a big mistake) lotsa rpm, not enuff torque. After shoehorning it in there, with A/C, and emission controls, it sounded sweet, (just like a corvette in a bag), and had that nice groovy lumpy rythmic idle, but it was no longer an economy car. Chevy, in their infinite wisdom, decided that their V8 stick Monza's would only get a standard 2:56 rear, but their V8 auto. versions a standard 2:92rear (strict1975 emissions, & gas milage), at least the tires were short, but wide 60series tires, & mags (for that era) but, it did have positraction, go figure? The car had a stock 7k tach (I'd guess the factory never figured it would ever be maxed out,,,lol), but after break in, it would run the clock (tach) 7k thru the gears on demand, with a 2bbl, shocked the carp out of me! and it was pretty fast, but lacking torque, espec. with that rear, you had to rev it to keep it in range, surprised a lot of people though. Don't ask me the gas milage though, suffice it to say it was not good,,, lol, and that was using super unleaded regularly, I sold it a few months later, because of this, the body rusting away, tune up was a nightmare, and front end alignments often, because the V8 was so heavy., as noted in these body styles.

I have changed my opinion of bayliners because after picking one out, and going over it, then laying out the money, and delivering it, for my son to buy, I was impressed by features I found standard that a lot of my previous better built boats didn't have. I think they use cheaper materials, but they're not in any better, or worse, shape then any other old boat I had for the condition they were kept, only the price was usually better. I was impressed enough to get one for myself.

My 71' 18ft Wellcraft Airslot, with the 165hp Mercruiser that I bought over 21yrs ago was in pretty good shape, but the engine was siezed, and because the engine looked pristine, I was hoping to free it up, I tried everything under the sun, but no luck! when I got it apart, apparently some salt water got in, and it didn't take much, but I had to hammer some of the pistons out, and rebuild it completely, surprisingly, I found the exact match pistons by "Speed Pro", from a US1 Auto store, and used their rebuilding kit, it was a great kit, and a snap to do. I made sure all the parts were marine specific where required, and even gently lapped some rust off the valves by hand. When I put it all together to run it, I just used the orig. 14X19" Mercury prop that was on it, and me with my young daughter, and only about 6gals gas in the boat, a light load, and it was a perfect light chop day in the bay for testing. I was surprised to see the tach hitting 5k myself, but the engine was humming along nicely. I eventually went to a 21" pitch prop, which put me right in the specified rpm range, especially once I started to run my normal load on the boat.

I've Learned never to rev my engine too much, or too high (WOT) in neutral, a pet peeve of mine, nor never to push my engines past redline, or recommended rpm (for marine use) under load.
 

JustJason

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

fireicyhott...
i was asking because its very common for older boats to absorb quite a bit of water all throughout the hull. Typically if everything else checks out, the next thing is to weigh it.
 

MikDee

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Re: 1990, 225 Sundowner 5.8L, 32mph??? is this right?

Jeff, Are you sure that boat is not a 302, instead of a 351w? physically they are the same outside. My last Wellcraft Airslot (the 3rd one) just an 18' bowrider with a 188hp Mercruiser (called an 888) with thru hull exhaust (below the waterline) would only do maybe 42mph, (heavy trihull sled design) never could find a 4bbl manifold for it way back then, but even with a 302 4bbl I still would expect your boat to be faster then 32?
 
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