Quick question for bondo......

[packerman]

I like your "drain'er dry" theory. Makes perfect sense. Better, cheaper and easier by far. That said, what is MerCruiser's theory of adding AF mix in colder climates? Also a quick question as to why the plugs aren't left out for the winter? How about condesate during heating and cooling if left empty/dry. Could this build up if the plugs are not left out. Looking forward to your thoughts......... you seem to believe in your way.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well,............

you seem to believe in your way.

My love just walked in from Work,+ happens to be reading this,............
Her comment was that I had to respond with,......
That's the Only Way I Believe,........... My Way...........d

Anyways,.... Back to Topic,........

There's a SSteel Deck Screw that resides in 1 of the pockets on my Intake manifold,........
It's There to Rod Out the Drains,........
When it's in it's Dry state,... The Plugs rest in the same Pocket,.......
It's kinda like the Boat's Plug,........
Ya want it Handy,..... But Not In-Place during storage..............
(I don't believe Condensate could Ever be enough to be an Issue)

what is MerCruiser's theory of adding AF mix in colder climates?

I Guess it's to keep their Dealers busy when they're Not doing warranty work,........ Donno.......

If you read the Factory Shop Manual Long Enough you'll find that both the Dry storage method,...........
And,....
The Polluting the Environment method are Approved for their motors........

 

[Don S]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

If you want to know Mercs view of it, here it is. On the Merc site.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/winterization_faqs2

 

[ziggy]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

man, it sure is hard to know what to do. i reread that artical a few times. i guess this must be the statement that bondo is talking about as far as mercusier saying both antifreeze and dry are acceptible.

it is not essential to fill the cooling system with antifreeze if you are absolutely sure that no water remains in the system.

i guess the way i read it is, if i'm sure all the water is out. i can store dry. any other condtion and i should use antifreeze.......
on the other hand.

The drain system on your engine is NOT intended to replace full winterization. It is for extending your boating season by allowing the cooling system to be drained after use if there is a risk of light freezing weather and you will be boating the next day. For full extended winter storage, after completely draining the cooling system, Mercury MerCruiser recommends the use of propylene glycol antifreeze (with a rust inhibitor for marine engines) in the seawater section of the cooling system.

man, it's always the other hand that's gettin in trouble.....
which way to go........hum........i'm still dry as of now.......i wish the oem in this case would just say one way or the other and end the debate.......i guess the more i read it, the more i think that draining completely and then the antifreeze is the best ya can do. draining only is acceptable, but, not the best ya can do......would that be a reasonable way to interpert that artical by the oem?
i'm also confused about the drain plug thing mentioned above. were talkin manifold and riser plugs? i thought ya were supposed to leave them in, after drainin as to prevent the screw threads from corrodeing....if ya filled it with antifreeze ya'd have no choice but to leave them in....
just the simplest of things in boating can be so confuzeing..............

 

[packerman]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well, MerCruiser seems to recommend AF. But different things I've read seem to state it differently. The sheet I printed off from Don S. last year mentions it as: "for added protection". Now above: Mercruisers view, lists drain and AF for "winter storage". But like many things we do, is it just being overboard, for example: do I really think my lower unit gear oil is wore out after one season of about 40 hours and there is no water or metal in it, no, but alot of people will change it anyways, cause it says so. I imagine all the dealerships would be required to do it the MerCruiser way. Who says they even drain your lower unit gear oil, maybe all they do is look at it and save themselves time and money if it looks good, who ever really looks to see if they have changed it? My question would be then I guess, how long have you been doing it this way bond-o? If he hasn't had any problem over the years, that would sound like proof it works. The dealerships want the money and the more inconvenient they can make it, the more likely people will not do it themselves and take it in to have done.

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

It's unprotected cast iron that has been wet and soaked with who knows what kind of chemicals and minerals from the lake/river/salt water it's used in. Antifreeze with a rust inhibitor sounds like a no brainer to me.

Peace of mind vs pieces spread about the shop.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

I've got Engines,+ Manifolds that have been Run,+ stored Dry for 40 Years............

NONE of them have ever Rusted Thru,........
None of them have Any issues with Rusted Out Drain Plug Holes,........
I've sent parts,+ pieces of different Manifolds,+ what-nots to several of You fellas that came from 20, 30, even 40 year old motors,......
Nobody has complained about Rusted Out Parts........

As for the page that Don posted,.....
If you look thru the online Shop Manual it states that Storing Dry is Fine.........
'Course it Also says that storing With Antifreeze is Fine as well........

All the Marinas around Here, just simply Drain Everything,+ leave the Plugs in an Easy to Find spot.......
When boating in Freshwater,.....
Blocks,+ Manifolds are Replaced ONLY when they're Frozen,+ Split,.......
Rust is NEVER a Problem.........

For the Ocean Runners,.......
I Don't Know if theres Any advantages or Not,.....
I rarely boat in the Saltwater.......

Winterizing your engine and drive.

If you are one of those that must use antifreeze instead of just draining, for whatever reason,

This is pulled from Don's Most Excellent post on How to Winterize,......
And,..... Elsewhere I've seen Don state that they Store Dry up in Ketchikan Alaska as Well.......

In Freshwater boating,.........
I stand by My Statements,.......
Antifreeze is a Waste of Time,+ Money,........
Along with the Fact that you're Polluting My Fishing Waters...........

 

[ziggy]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Rust is NEVER a Problem.........

...question authority

this saga continues i think.......

this is my old manifold on my IL6. i don't think it got a freeze break in it. i think it rusted thru. i was told this boat sat for 15 years w/o operation. i question that a little as it had a 01 registration sticker on it when i got it. + some of the rubber looks too new. anyways, perhaps it was stored a long time as the boat is in fair cond. perhaps w/o antifreeze. i don't know. i state the conditions of the storeing as i think it may be relevant to the reason for what i think is a rusted thru manifold. not a normal winterize, put back into operation event.
i'm still thinking i agree with bondo. he has obvioulsy had success storeing many engines dry. i have too for that matter. though i did loose a block last year for a crack. i don't think that was freeze damage either as it was cracked inside a headbolt hole. (i don't know what caused this crack and would like to know)
most of us here are here to learn so i post these pics in debate of this subject. of the expereices i've had, this is one of them(what i think is a rusted thru manifold).......i've had 2 pwc, 1, 2-stoke, 1. 4-stoke, and 2 IL6's. all have been stored dry w/o ramifications. (unless someone can get me to believe that the cracked headbolt hole was water freeze damage, or if someone can get me to beleive that that rust on the outside of my manifold is freeze damage)
i guess this is the first year that i am considering useing antifreeze. like i said earlier.
refering to the mercruiser artical dons linked us to.

.....i guess the more i read it, the more i think that draining completely and then the antifreeze is the best ya can do. draining only is acceptable, but, not the best ya can do.....

 

[Bondo]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well Ziggy,.......

The 1st 2 pictures sure Look like Freeze Damage.........
In the "Classic" spot Too........

When Iron Rusts Through,..... It's almost Never in a continuous Line like that,........
It's usually in Spots here & there,.....And, it's usually in the Inner Manifold, the part that carries the Exhaust Gases,.... It's the Heat,.......
I've Never seen 1 Rot out to the Outside......Not down in the main body of the casting......

Where as,.... That Looks like a Crack.........

The 3rd picture almost Looks like a Crack from the Manifold getting HOT,+ suddenly getting it's Water back,........
Sudden Cooling will Also Crack Cast Iron.............

I Don't Think any of that is Rust Thru Damage.............

Btw,.......Today I happened to be visiting Another Marina here in the area,........
The Owner tells me that All of their Winterizations are done DRY..............
So,...... Around Here,..... It's All the Marinas that I've asked are doing the Dry method,.........
And None are using Antifreeze..........
But,.... I'll Keep Asking...........

 

[packerman]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

I put it away Saturday, DRY w/o plugs in. I'll post in the spring with the results. If it didn't work, I've got the 3 year warrenty for it and I'll be looking to you guys for a good line of bullshit to use, to try and get it covered. I don't see why it shouldn't work fine.

 

[Don S]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Mercs warranty doesn't cover freeze damage, go back and look at the FAQ page from Merc I posted for you. And no dealer is going to try and sneek it thru or they could loose their dealership.
If you didn't do it right (antifreeze or no antifreeze) then it's your fault and you suffer the consiquences.
But, if you made sure ALL the drains and hoses were drained and open and the engine was level when you did it, then you won't have a problem.

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

I'm no expert in Marine engines but have had some experience in building auto engines. I have been lurking and learning and winterized my merc this weekend. I used AF. I wanted to look into the internals of this new motor so I popped the stat. A lot of crap came out of the drains so the AF was a no brainer. I flushed as well.
Big failures in auto engines occur in oil and coolant passages when they begin to clog in recesses. Looking at the crap in the passages of my motor using AF was a no brainer. Engine pasages have imperfections from casting and crap buildup combined can trap water much like a puddle in the road. crap along with water sitting for long periods spell bad news for iron. In my mind, with this motor, i had to use AF.
What is the deal with,... you are anti-envrioment if you use AF? I plan to drain to a container and re-use? Stuff is expensive!

I guess if you are the only owner and know where your motor has been, then go dry? hope that some water is not trapped somewhere?

Just seems like added security for a few more minutes of work?

 

[Don S]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well mkpj1, I for one doubts there are any (or maybe one or two) that actually go to the trouble to drain the antifreeze and collect it. Personally I don't think it's possible to drain it all. Same with the water.
The thing with water breaking things is you have to drain it down so when it does freeze, it can't expand and break things. Look at the old metal ice cube trays. They never broke, but they were open to the top and the ice expanded up. It didn't bend the tray or crack the metal pan because it had a place to go. Same thing in hoses. The rubber expands and nothing breaks.
In an engine the drain plugs are put low. With a level engine it drains low enough that any freezing water can't expand and break things because it has room to move.
All those pockets of ice turn to water when the weather gets warm. Now, if you use antifreeze, it's still there.
Best thing to do is take it to the lake and start it......... no one will notice it that way. Or, start it in your driveway and let it head for the storm drain. Hope the dogs or other animals don't find it first. But the fact is, you can't get all the antifreeze out of the engine before you start it. You know and I know your draining statement is a bunch of BS. I've worked on these things long enough to not fall for that kind of statement. May sound good, but not worth the paper it was written on.
Antifreeze is only needed for the inexperienced to cover there butts because they didn't know what they were doing or just out of pure laziness, it is NOT necessary by any means.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well this is simple move to Oregon

Get this

And this

Now closely watch the weather (it happen's on or twice a year) and just slip the switch.........:}

Oppps big over sight

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Don,

Are you serious? Better Study ethylene glycol. Breaks down in pure form in less than a week in soil and water. I'm not saying it's OKAY!
So every last single little drop doesn't come out. What PPM is that? Are you going to ban Windshield wiper fluid too?

Look, I suggest you don't put your boat in the water at all. What about all the metals coming off straight into the water through the standard systems, leaking benzene and toulene into the water. Oil, gas.....Oh I'm sure yours doesn't? Gimme a break! Those are carcinongens. What about the exhaust? Please! I'll be willing to do any study with you Don that the crap coming straight out of the pipes will be MUCH worse than my system above.

Oh yes I can drain the system just like I drain the oil system and the fuel system without getting it "in the storm drain" much less "anywhere" on my boat? Good Grief!

Hey try this for thought, EC pulls loose carcinogens and metals out of the system (This one reason EC is so dangerous when you drain it Don, look it up) and into my holding tanks for use next year (recycling EC is the thing you know) and not into the lake for little tommy to ingest? Try that if you want to save the fishes.

No, Really Don. No BS. I'm not looking for your approval.Thats what I'm going to do. How is that pure lazyness as it will take me three times as long as you just draining? Sounds to me like you need a reason to be lazy.

Honestly, they do it FOR ADDED PROTECTION for the one time water gets trapped, doesn't drain, and cracks a block. Like uhh, when I had to use a small allen wrench to clear the friggen drain hole!!! Thought there was no water until...OH, gushing water and sand!

We are all not experts like you Don. We wouldn't be here if we were.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Don,

Are you serious? Better Study ethylene glycol. Breaks down in pure form in less than a week in soil and water. I'm not saying it's OKAY!
So every last single little drop doesn't come out. What PPM is that? Are you going to ban Windshield wiper fluid too?

Look, I suggest you don't put your boat in the water at all. What about all the metals coming off straight into the water through the standard systems, leaking benzene and toulene into the water. Oil, gas.....Oh I'm sure yours doesn't? Gimme a break! Those are carcinongens. What about the exhaust? Please! I'll be willing to do any study with you Don that the crap coming straight out of the pipes will be MUCH worse than my system above.

Oh yes I can drain the system just like I drain the oil system and the fuel system without getting it "in the storm drain" much less "anywhere" on my boat? Good Grief!

Hey try this for thought, EC pulls loose carcinogens and metals out of the system (This one reason EC is so dangerous when you drain it Don, look it up) and into my holding tanks for use next year (recycling EC is the thing you know) and not into the lake for little tommy to ingest? Try that if you want to save the fishes.

No, Really Don. No BS. I'm not looking for your approval.Thats what I'm going to do. How is that pure lazyness as it will take me three times as long as you just draining? Sounds to me like you need a reason to be lazy.

Honestly, they do it FOR ADDED PROTECTION for the one time water gets trapped, doesn't drain, and cracks a block. Like uhh, when I had to use a small allen wrench to clear the friggen drain hole!!! Thought there was no water until...OH, gushing water and sand!

We are all not experts like you Don. We wouldn't be here if we were.

Good grief could you post your sources for ethylene glycol 1/2 time life. or the break down tables this is astonsihing.

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Here you go: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html

Not familiar with 1/2 time? Propably in a vacuum? I am familiar with Half-life which, I think, only pertains to things like medicine and radioactive isotopes? So a week 1/2 time is 3.5 days,....in pure form???

Look, Like I said, Don't put your boat in the water if you are worried about what I suggest above. No BS!

 

[ziggy]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

man, this sure seems like a debateable subject. mercruiser must have wrote the artical dons posted so we could all have fun debateing the subject. .
thanks bondo for letting me in on the notion that cast iron don't rust in a line. that makes sense, and i must agree, my pic does look like a line. this is the second manifold on an il6 that i've replaced, the 1st one had fixed freeze cracks on it. i don't have pics of that one. but if i rember correctly, the cracks were on the other side of the manifold. the side that bolts up close to the block. i didn't know it had been fixed as i couldn't see the repair(s) untill it was off the engine. the one in the pic is cracked (rusted) in a different spot. and sittin so long i just figured it was just plain rust thru. i guess not. that's why i'm here. to learn.
i want to thank the experts myself. the info you all provide is worth its weight in gold. just like me misinterperting my manifold pics above. experience is worth a lot. and the time you all take to let us (me) in on the facts is very helpfull. thanks.

it seems that the crux of the whole story to me is.
get all the water out of it. either way, dry or antifreeze. ya got's to get all the water out. then it's just up to the individual to do what they want. w/o anti freeze is good, with anti freeze would be better, but is not nesessary. if ya got the water out............

so rp's for anti freeze, bondos for dry, out of courisity, which way do you store your own boat dons? i feel i have all the water out, so my option is open. your answer would be the tie breaker. . i still can't decide which way to go.....in the end though. i guess it don't really matter. as long as. ya got all the water drained out of it. that apears to be the crittical issue in the end...........

bondo. the third pic is of the inside of my manifold. i wanted to be sure that it was the culprit for me gettin water into my engine oil. i filled the old manifold on the bench with water. the pic was taken just after the fill up and it started leaking right away. it's water thats runnin down the inside of the exhust runner area, maybe 6" fwd of the rust on the outside. the tube is the choke tube to help ya know where that leak is at compared to the outside pics. it confirmed my leak. next day, the whole runner was full of water............

 

[8x56mn]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Well guys there is another way, you can pump Nitrogen through it to pull out all the moisture. We use this all the time on claned and flushed hydraulic lines prior to filling.

 

[packerman]

Re: Quick question for bondo......

Oh great.............thanks alot guys, now you've got me thinking again!!!! What I have is a 2006 that I actually got in 2005 even though I wasn't supposed to have. I also have an autistic son, which doesn't allow me the time and energy to really spend the time necessary on this stuff (this is the first year that I have some again). So I tend to be behind on things and do them a little half-assed sometimes.......... that's why I have the "06", because I didn't take the time to properly fill the lower unit on my old "85" 3.0 mercruiser. So that said, I also used to work in maintenance before I had to quit to became the housewife. It's kind of a blur as to what I did with my "06" last year, as it was cold out and outside when I was doing it and once again, not enough time, not to be doing it in a hurry. My book has the instructions for the air purge system but my boat don't have it. So, Don S. put some diagrams up for me to make sure that I probably wouldn't miss any plugs. I don't remember using AF on it though or pulling off any hoses.... I replaced the plugs I know , but left loose thinking it would hold down air exchage and produce less condensation and still allow the water to trickle out on the wamer days of winter. Also, with 10 or so hours on it (since I got it in Aug.) I didn't change the oils or anything else really, since practically new yet and there had better not be water leaking in my lower unit is my thought!!!!! Fishing out my drain holes is not needed at this point and the water pours out of them when they're opened and it hasn't had enough time, I doubt, to have build ups to hold back water. I have it in a garage with it tilted slightly down hill so I could get the outdrive almost completely down. It had almost a two hour drive to there with the plugs out so I hope any water drops still in it would have wiggled itself to the drains. Plugs are left out this time. Winters in Wisc. are quite a bit warmer now than when I was a kid as was the case again last year. Now, my other son likes to mess around with freezing things and sometimes he'll stick a half full glass-glass of water in the freezer, that I find. Now as I think about this whole thing.....if it doesn't expand up, with room to, when freezing then I would be cleaning shattered glasses from the freezer, I'm not. So my thinking is unless you've forgot to drain it at all, you really shouldn't have any problems. A little shouldn't hurt anything, but then you see these pics and wonder if that is true, figuring these must have been drained, but look, it must have somehow still happened. The hoses at least have some give and room for water to expand up as well. If someone out there had an old worthless engine and manifolds to experment on...... then maybe they could settle it once and for all. Like I said before, at $91.50/hr. for labor, I can spend the time to learn some about this and do it myself and still save a bunch of money left over I could use for other, more important things. Back to the point, I didn't pull any hoses, I'm assuming the engineers located the drains at the low spots and there is one at the water pump hose too, so it should be fine. But the MerCruiser statements are stupid unto themselves saying draining is only really OK for one night and only if for a light frost, meaning they are covering their ass or they are not engineered for drained winter storage and should be reccommending AF for even overnight strorage, as it's a little hard to predict the exact temperature it will be on any given night. I don't think that was my case last year and I guess we'll see this year, even though you all have me once again thinking about it. I appreciate your help and opinions, enjoy the give and take, and ultimately the decision comes down to me and I'll be stuck with the bill if I choose wrong, I'm fine with that. I haven't any experience with engines so I don't know exactly where the drains are located in the block, but I can't imagine an engineer locating them half way up. There's still time for me I guess, but I think I did it dry last year and I'm doing it agin, I guess. Oh, I've never been on salt with any of my boats, so that is not a consideration.