Science or Honda bluff?

Triton II

Commander
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
2,479
Apologies if this has already been posted.

Scientist Calls For Ban On Two-Strokes
4 July, 2006

World first research measuring outboard engine emissions in fresh and salt water, has found underwater pollutants could be cut by up to 1000 per cent by switching from two to four-stroke outboard engines.

Research by Queensland University of Technology (QUT) found that two-stroke engines produced up to 10 times more water pollution than equivalent four-strokes.

According to Doctor Richard Brown from QUT's School of Engineering Systems, the cocktail of chemicals outboard motors left in their wake acidified waterways and deposited long-lasting carcinogens.

"Heavy metals can be bound in sediments, but as outboard motor emissions lower the pH of the water, heavy metals can be released as the water becomes acidified," Dr Brown said.

"The heavy metals in the acid water then become bio available and enter the food chain."

Dr Brown said previous studies had focused on air pollutants produced by these engines but no one had, so far, looked at what they left behind underwater.

"We now know we can reduce emissions by 1000 per cent using four-stroke engines," he said.

"Approximately 80 per cent of outboard engines are two-stroke - perhaps because they are cheaper to produce - but people are changing their minds about them, and in 10 years we hope high emission outboards will have been phased out in Australia.

"In Europe and the United States this is already happening as regulations are becoming much more stringent because of pollution effects in waterways."

Commenting on the findings, Honda Marine Manager, Tim Davies said the results were no surprise.

"It's certainly disappointing that these pollution levels are entering our waterways," Mr Davies said.

"Honda founder Soichiro Honda, realised back in the 1960s that four-stroke engines were the way of the future and proceeded to only manufacture these engines - you have to admire his forethought in light of this new research."

Mr Davies said preserving Australian waterways was crucial and an issue that needed to be addressed as soon as possible.

"To its credit the Australian Government is starting to listen to the concerns that the scientific community has aired in relation to two-stroke technology, and it may not be too long before we see regulation similar to that in the United States and Europe introduced here," Mr Davies said.

"In the mean time it's our role to encourage consumers to consider the environmentally responsible four-stroke option when purchasing an outboard."

Dr Brown is an independent researcher. He is one of a number of world wide experts consulted by Honda Japan's technical centre.

For further information please contact:

Honda Marine
Phone (03) 9270 1111
http://www.honda.com.au/
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Surely not science.

1. To reduce something 1000% you must remove 9 times as much pollution as you had before. Even distilling the water couldn't do that.

2. "Two stroke engines" cover several levels of technology that couldn't all be the same. No mention was made of the levels deposited by at least 2 levels of 4 stroke engines.

3. No explanation of how and why the "2 strokes" make this pollution and "4 strokes" remove it.

My guess is that this article was written by a very non-technical non-scientist who misinterpreted, misreported and exaggerated something he read.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Hey

They just allowed the E-TEC on a VERY restricted lake in
europe


C&P
Evinrude E-TEC receives approval on Lake Constance

By IBI Magazine

BRP's Evinrude E-TEC direct injection two-stroke outboard engines have received approval for operation on Lake Constance (Bodensee). The company noted in a statement that the line is the first two-stroke outboard brand to receive approval on what many consider to be one of Europe's most highly regulated bodies of water.

"The recognition of our Evinrude E-TEC two-stroke engine technology for use on Lake Constance by such a respected and stringent regulatory board is an outstanding achievement of which we are very proud," said Pierre Pichette, vice president of public affairs at BRP. "Today's milestone reinforces our efforts of changing perceptions about our direct-injection two-stroke outboard technology versus four-stroke engines."

A ceremony was held at the Deutsche Lebens Rettungs Gesellschaft (DRLG). The DLRG is the largest voluntary water rescue organization operating on and around the Bodensee. It promotes marine environmental responsibility and leadership.

Lake Constance (Bodensee) covers 64 km (40 miles) in length and 13.6 km (8.5 miles) in width and is Europe's third largest lake. More than 4.5 million people in the region rely on the nautical officials under the BSO regulations (Bodensee-Schifffahrts Ordnung) to protect the Lake, as it is a major source of their drinking water.

Enacted in 1976, the BSO regulations severely restricted all recreational marine engines. In early 2006, a new regulation, the sport boat clause, was introduced to allow EU (European Union) certified four-stroke engines up to 90 hp (74 kW) on the lake. By certifying that Evinrude E-TEC emission levels fall below the EU four-stroke limits, nautical officials agreed to approve the first two-stroke on the lake since 1976. Based on this approval, the nautical authorities are now able to register the Evinrude E-TEC 40, 50, 60, 75 and 90 hp models for operation on the Bodensee.

(6 October 2006)

tommays
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Of course that article is incorrect by omission of advanced DFI 2-strokes. It only mentions traditional motors.

The EPA award even shows that the E-TEC low emission Evinrude has less particulates than a 4-stroke

http://www.epa.gov/air/caaac/2004awar.html#technology


by the way, Honda HAS made 2-stroke motorcycles in the past.
 

Paul Moir

Admiral
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
6,847
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

A doctor hired by Honda says 2 strokes are bad? I'll contact the local press, they must have missed this one somehow.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,749
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

It seems to me that a HUGE emission reduction could be made, by simply replacing the crude based 2 cycle oil, with a biodegradable synthetic oil.

The existing motors could still be used, so we wouldn't have to dispose of them, and Honda wouldn't have to pollute the environment by building new 4 stroke engines.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

In the tests of the lakes that baned 2 strokes the water pretty much cleaned up on its own very fast as the unburned gas floats on the water and is burned off burned the sun

But the levels never got high again after the ban from useing 4 stroke motors

The biggest surprise is that MTBE is staying for keeps at this point :(

Tommays
 

reeldutch

Lieutenant
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,340
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

i think new technology will bring new life into the 2 stroke outboard world.
in the future i would not be surprized with all computer controled engines the 2 stroke will be just as clean as a 4 stroke.
may be in the future it is not neccesary for a 2 stroke to burn oil.
oiling system like a 4 stroke and direct injection like e-tec.
 

imported_Curmudgeon

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
496
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

... underwater pollutants could be cut by up to 1000 per cent ..

I'm no math whiz, but I believe if you remove all underwater pollutants, you have reduced underwater pollutants by only 100%. One has to admire the creative use of stats, though.

.. you have to admire his forethought in light of this new research.

Yeah, I'll bet it was forethought, and had nothing to do with marketing the only 4 stroke on the market after Bearcat's demise (not that early Hondas were so great).
 

SeaKaye12

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
1,108
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

They're calling that stuff "NEWS"????

They've been talking about the pollution from 2-strokes for years....decades actually...but as the other posters have stated...they're primarily talking about the carbureted "old tech" two strokes.....not the newer injected ones...and certainly not the e-tec.

Thanks for reading, Chuck
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Rosco writes: It seems to me that a HUGE emission reduction could be made, by simply replacing the crude based 2 cycle oil, with a biodegradable synthetic oil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totaly agree with Rosco's comment. Matter of facts I have read that synthetic 2 stroke biodegradable oil is already available in New Zealand. I beleve it may be produced by Shell. Would be nice if it was available in America. The other alternative would be to use the Amsoil 2 stroke oil that was designed to be used at 100:1 ratio that they claim reduces polution by 30%.


Cheers
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

One brand of biodegradable 2 cycle oil is Greenlube
sold in Canada and in the USA

Any comments on that canola based bio 2 cycle oil ?

It's going to be a long cold winter ...
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,749
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Many companies are offering biodegradable synthetic 2 cycle oil.
Some of them are NMMA TC-w3 certified, some are not.


BRP
AMSOIL
Quicksilver (Mercury)
PENNZOIL
Renewable Lubricants
And many more.

For what its worth, your GREENLUBE costs over $21 a liter. ! ! !

I can buy a GALLON (4l) of Pennzoil 100% synthetic for that price.


It appears that AMSOIL HPI may be NMMA TC-W3 rated now, as they are using those trademarked terms on their website now.


From their website:

HP Injector Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (HPI)
Excellent for all outboard motors with a performance emphasis on modern direct fuel injected (DFI) technology. Also recommended for personal watercraft, jet boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles and ATVs. Injector use or 50:1 premix.
NMMA TC-W3, API TC

See Pricing Information or Place an Order

Package sizes in.........
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

biodegradable is a VERY abused word :( to make people think things are safe


Acetone is biodegradable and you really dont want to dump into the water :)


Tommays
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

rosco writes: I can buy a GALLON (4l) of Pennzoil 100% synthetic for that price
----------------------------------------------------------------------
oups ... (lol) that was new to me ... I was under the impression that biodegradable 2 cycle oil was a rare bird ... I m obviously not at par ...

I presently use Amsoil HPI ... do I read that it is biodegradable ? I knew it was Tc-w3 compatible ... so it it's Tc-w3 rated now ... I guess It was.

Tx
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

roscoe said:
Many companies are offering biodegradable synthetic 2 cycle oil.
Some of them are NMMA TC-w3 certified, some are not.


BRP
AMSOIL
Quicksilver (Mercury)
PENNZOIL
Renewable Lubricants
And many more.

For what its worth, your GREENLUBE costs over $21 a liter. ! ! !

I can buy a GALLON (4l) of Pennzoil 100% synthetic for that price.


It appears that AMSOIL HPI may be NMMA TC-W3 rated now, as they are using those trademarked terms on their website now.


From their website:

HP Injector Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (HPI)
Excellent for all outboard motors with a performance emphasis on modern direct fuel injected (DFI) technology. Also recommended for personal watercraft, jet boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles and ATVs. Injector use or 50:1 premix.
NMMA TC-W3, API TC

See Pricing Information or Place an Order

Package sizes in.........


Better check the slick, glossy and usually misleading Amsoil advertising again. It usually goes something like use "where TCW 3 oil is specified". It doesn't say the are TCW3 certified. I think Amsoil had a 2004 or 2005 certification on one 2 stroke oil but the NMMA dot org doesn't show Amsoil on any of their 2006 TCW3 certs for 2 stroke oil. They show Amsoil only in the FWC certification which is 4 stroke oil.

Scamoil.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,749
Re: Science or Honda bluff?

Yes Bill P, I have checked with 2 AMSOIL sources, it is not TCW3 rated, that is why I was surprised to see them using NMMA TC-W3 on their site.
I would think that the NMMA would be all over them for trademark or copyright infringement.

And as far as which biodegradable oils are low toxicity oils, you will have to research that on your own.
 
Top