Correct control for a 1960 Merc

tmor51

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I just purchased a 1960 45HP white Mercury to replace a 40hp 1972 Merc. The '60 has a magneto, the '72 has Thunderbolt ignition. Question: Will the controls for the newer Merc work for the '60? The control box for the '72 is all black with a red Merc logo decal on the side. I have gotten several opinions but not a definative answer. I don't want to damage the freshly restored 1960 Merc. I do know that the "proper" control is an oval shaped, all white box but I was hoping the newer control would work to save some hassle and a few bucks. The gear shift and the accelerator works OK with the older motor, the question is will the way it's wired be a problem. Thanks for any help.
 

MartyTn

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

If the pin pattern is the same on the side of your old and new motors, then your new control is fine for your old motor. I use the same controls and electrical harnesses on everything from my 1959 Mark 58A (same as your 1960) to my 70's 4-cyl and 6-cyl Mercs.

If the pin pattern is the same, but with one less pin on your older motor, don't worry about it, as the extra pin (small one centered at front) is for a tach, and some of the earlier harnesses didn't utilize this pin. Probably your later harness has the hole for the tach pin but your 1960 motor probably doesn't have the pin, and if this is the case, then you're good to go.

When the 2-cyl 35 and 40 hp motors came out, some of those had different pin patterns from the old standard 4 & 6 cyl plugs, and if your pin pattern is different, then you'll need new controls with the correct pin pattern.
 

Laddies

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Although the shift on most of the early boxes is the same there are differant plugins just to name a few - direst reversing - magneto ign. - convention ign. and battery powered CD ign. most had a part number on the plugin so a mechanic could tell the differance easily
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Laddies said:
Although the shift on most of the early boxes is the same there are differant plugins just to name a few - direst reversing - magneto ign. - convention ign. and battery powered CD ign. most had a part number on the plugin so a mechanic could tell the differance easily
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Thanks for the reply guys. Laddies, are you agreeing with MartyTn that as long as the pin pattern is the same it should be OK? or do I need to check for a part number on the harness plug and make sure it is for a magneto ignition.

Another question: Yesterday I had the gas line hooked up to the motor which was connected to a new plastic gas tank. The vent on the tank was closed. I took the cover off the boat and after about a half hour gas was dripping out of the carbs and running down the motor and forming a nice puddle on the ground. Did this happen because the tank warmed up in the sun and expanded the gas to the point it filled the carbs, or is there something wrong with the motor? Thanks again for your help guys.
 

Laddies

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

No I disagree and have seen mags burned up with battery power hooked to them. Then the vent is closed on the tank it is possible to build enough pressure to cause the inlets to leak, even some primer bulbs will push them off to seats
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Laddies, Thanks for the clarification. On the gas tank problem - the motor is probably OK(?) and if I had the vent open it probably wouldn't have happened, right? I used to use (and still have) an old metal tank and I never had that problem with my '72 motor. Leads me to beleive it's more of a problem with the plastic tanks. I bought the new one 'cause the guy who rebuilt the '60-400 told me to get a new tank cause the old metal ones can be contaminated with rust and gunk (any opinions on that?) Thanks for all you patience with a novice old merc guy. I'll get this figured out yet.
 

MartyTn

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

tmor51,

Are the harness plugs on your 1960 Merc 400/450 and 1972 Thunderbolt 400 the same (with exception of the one small pin centered at front which may or may not be there for a tach)? If they're not the same, then the harnesses definitely can not be interchanged.

If the harness plugs are the same, I believe you're ok or either I've just been lucky. I have the same thing. My Mk58A and Merc 650 are magneto motors and my 1970 Merc500 and 1967-68 Merc 1000SS and Merc 1100SS are all the early Thunderbolt ignition with distributor / driver. I run all my motors with either harness and I've yet to have a problem. A couple of years ago, before interchanging the harnesses myself, I did a wire-by-wire comparison of these two harnesses (with the Merc factory 1965 and Prior service manual and the Seloc 1965-1984 service manual), because I know 12 volts into a magneto is a bad bad thing. After I saw Laddies' reply, I looked at the wire diagrams of these two ignition system harnesses again this morning on the maxrules old merc pages located under "Wiring Diagrams" at http://www.maxrules.com/fixoldmercindex.html

I very well may have missed it, and I apologize in advance if I did, but I didn't see any wire in the newer (early Thunderbolt) harness that would put 12 volts into the magneto when used on a magneto motor.

I sent an email to my friend Wayne "Clams" Canino who has helped me so much with my motors and he is on vacation but asked me to post this (he is speaking specifically about the magneto harness and early Thunderbolt harness - not anything like dockbusters or battery ignitions or others with different plugs):
"As far as I know you CAN interchange the harnesses so long as you wire it up correctly and account for color changes on the wires. Could you please post for me on Iboats that I'm on vacation and computer access is difficult."

So, thanks Laddies for your input and I for sure don't want tmor51's magneto to be fried by 12 volts going to it, but if such is happening with this early Thunderbolt harness, can you please also help me and let me know which wire it is in the harness that is putting the 12 volts into the mag? Maybe I've just been lucky so far?

Thanks,
Marty
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Wow! Thanks for all the effort in helping me Marty. I will double check the plugs on the two motors very carefully before I do anything else and let you know what I find.
Warmest regards from Wisconsin,
Tom
 

Laddies

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

tmor,First I am not trying to steal your post but I do feel the need to respond to Marty, it will be my only responce I have better things to do. As far as Wayne (Clams Canino) he is a excellent mechanic and advisor on this and a couple of other forums, I have all the respect in the world for what he says, I cannot say the same for your freind from Tennessee. It is people like him that cause professional mechanics to be hesitant to give advice. In anwser to his question I checked in my Mercury Marine parts list dated Aug. 1973 that covers the engines that you original asked about I belive, below is the listing for wire harnesses and there superseded number so anyone can compare the interchangeablity of the harnesses.

Merc 200 is 57416A-- and is NLA
350 engines are 34200A-- superseded to 84-12412A-- NLA
ALL 4 cyl. mag engines are 29645A-- Superseded to 84-822253A-- available
Direct Reversing 6 cyl engines is 29729-2 is NLA
All 6 cyl. gear shift distributor engines is 30471A-- superseded to 38400 NLA
4 and 6 cyl. battery CD is 39125A-- surerseded to 45876A-- to 84-822253T-- available
I hope this list helps those who would like to know the differances in the older harnesses.

Marty if you have a problem with this list please take it up with Mecury Marine, you have wasted enough of my time. Bob
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

OK, I pulled the plug and it is marked 45876. That is for the 4 and 6 cyl. battery CD model - don't what that means. What is battery CD? The plugs on both engines are the same except, as Marty indicated above, the older motor does not have the front center pin for the tach. I do appreciate your input Marty, but I'm very hesitant to use the '72 control because of what Laddies is saying, I probably wouldn't be as lucky as you. Sooooo, anybody out there have a 1960 control and harness for sale that's about 11" long...I haven't been able to find one on eBay. Thanks again for all the effort on this post. I'm learning alot on this forum.
 

MartyTn

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

tmor51,

Battery CD ignition is the family of ignitions that followed the magneto. They began production on Mercs in the latter 1960’s. The teardrop box that was correct for your 1960 Merc400 is no different than the square white box without tach connector or the square white box with tach connector. All were for magneto Mercs. So if you really want to find a used harness and box you can look for any of those white boxes with your plug type. Due to their age, it's hard to find good used ones still around, but if they've been kept inside, good ones can still be found. I've got at least one of each type, not good enough to sell, but good enough to use around the shop. The black dual-lever box that someone showed a pic of on the fiberglassics board is also correct for your motor but those are getting hard to find.

In order to assure yourself that you won’t damage your 1960 Merc400 magneto, you can easily find out for sure if 12 volts is ever getting to the mag from your harness. It’s very easy. There won’t be any other issues with the other pins of the harness.

The way a magneto works is to generate it’s own power, and it therefore needs no external power coming into it. The way a magneto motor is to be shutdown is by simply grounding out the magneto. If you’re as old as I am then you will no doubt remember the early gas lawn mowers that used a small piece of metal on the engine block that could be pushed against the spark plug to ground it out to stop the motor. Well, that is exactly the same way your 1960 Merc400 is shut down. When the key is switched to the “off” position, that lead to the magneto is grounded so the sparking stops.

There is only one wire from the harness that goes to the magneto on your 1960 Merc400. You can remove this wire with a 3/8” or 7/16” nut from it's insulated connector. The wire you will disconnect from the mag will be connected to an insulated terminal at the side of the mag. There will also be a braded ground wire (with no insulation) connected to the back of the mag and this one stays as it is the ground wire for the magneto. There may be one additional wire going to the magneto on your motor. On some of those motors there was a “mercury switch” that is a small round cylinder about ½” in diameter and 1” - 2” long that is mounted onto the engine block at a 45-degree angle. This (optional) switch was there to cause the mag to be grounded when the motor hit something in the water and the prop came out of the water while still running. As the years went by, most of these mercury switches (if one was there in the first place) were disconnected or removed because they themselves sometimes went bad and caused the motor not to start. On a rebuilt motor, I would think you probay wouldn’t have a mercury switch, but even if you do, that lead is okay and don’t disconnect it. So, the only one wire you want to disconnect from the mag is the wire going to the middle of the side of the mag to the insulated terminal.

After removing that harness wire, you can then plug up your harness to your Merc400 (with the removed wire not touching the magneto or touching anything grounded), and test this disconnected wire with a standard 12-volt automotive test light. With the test light lead grounded to the block and the probe end of the test light connected into the harness wire (that you disconnected from the mag), you can move your key switch through all positions: OFF – ON/RUN – START – OFF. Do this several times and be sure the test light has good connections and that your battery is connected. If that test light ever comes on, in any position of the key switch, then 12 volts is coming through that wire (a no-no for the magneto on your 1960 motor), and if this is the case, then your harness is still useable with your existing control box, but the key switch will just need to be re-wired. Before you do this test, be sure your test light is working by putting the probe end to the big red wire of the engine wire harness which should cause the test light to light up showing that you have a good ground with the aligator clip and that your test light is working properly. Then proceed to test the wire you disconnected from the mag by moving the key through all the possible positions.

So, if you do have 12 volts going to this mag wire, you can get the switch re-wired, and I can help you there too. I do this for fun and will be happy to help as much as I can. I love to see these old Mercs still going strong. If the disconnected wire does not have 12 volts going to it, then a double-check to make sure the harness is wired right is to check continuity (with a standard Radio Shack multimeter/ohmmeter) that this disconnected wire is grounded when the switch is in the “OFF” position and that it is not grounded in the START or ON/RUN positions. If the latter is the case, then you can plug up that harness and head for the water.

By doing these tests you can be assured that you will be doing all the up-front checking and not damaging your motor if the harness isn’t wired correctly. As you continue, please feel free to email me at mwinn@genesco.com and I’ll get the emails quicker and I’ll be happy to stay with you until you’ve got this motor on the water.

Best of luck with it,
Marty
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Marty, You are a good man. You have really gone the extra mile to help out a perfect stranger (OK, I'm not perfect). I will carefully do all the tests you have outlined so articulately and let you know what I find out. I'll probably be emailing you direct if I have questions. Thank you so much for your patience and help. Everyone else, I'll keep you all posted on the results.
Warmest regards,
Tom
 

emckelvy

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2,506
Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Take a look at the various wiring diagrams for each type of ign:

http://www.maxrules.com/wireindex.html

You'll find that pin "E" is the "mag kill" connection and on motors with either a magneto or Lighting Energizer ign, pin "E" is carried thru on the motor's internal wiring harness to connect to the ign system.

On CDI motors, switched +12V is supplied to the ign box thru the white wire, via pin "F".

Note that on CDI motors, pin "E" has no function and is not carried thru on the internal wiring harness.

Conversely, on "ign kill" type of ign's, pin "F" has no function and is not carried thru on the internal harness.

You'll also notice in the diagram for your '72 40 hp Merc, that pin "E" is used to kill the ign. So, even though your '72 is electronic ign, it still uses the "mag kill" function, same as the older motor.

So, go ahead with your checks, I have no doubt that you'll find that your control harness, when plugged into your Merc 450, will operate to ground out your magneto with the ign switch in the "OFF" position and unground it when "ON".

I also don't expect you'll find 12V being supplied to your magneto, or anywhere else it's not supposed to be.

I've been working on Mercs for over 25 years and have never had any issues with external wiring harnesses as long as the harness would plug into the motor.

In fact I usually have a spare "generic" control box/harness kicking around just in case I need to plug it into a "stray" motor in order to run it.

I'll grant you that every motor has its own style of internal harness, but the external harnesses were made to cover a wide variety of motors.

Now, if you're talking Dockbusters or Dual-Coil Towers of Power, that's a different story. The pin-outs are reversed and only the correct harness will even plug in.

HTH and let us know what your electrical checks reveal.........ed
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Thanks for your help Ed. The weather is lousy tonight so I'll have to wait another day to do the tests, but this all sounds very promising that I won't have to try and find a replacement control. Terrific forum! Thanks again!
 

tmor51

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Marty and Ed,
I did all the tests you suggested and everything worked as you said. So I went ahead and plugged in the control harness and, after tracking down and bad connection in the starter, I was able to get everything working! I took the boat out today and it worked well! If you are looking for a vintage Merc I would highly recommend 57mark55, a seller on eBay. I bought mine for him and he does a great job of restoring these great old motors.
 

emckelvy

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Hey, glad she worked! 8)

Guess it was a happy day of boating for all concerned (had a nice time at the lake today too!!!).........ed
 

MartyTn

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Re: Correct control for a 1960 Merc

Congrats Tom! I'm so glad to hear you got your tests done okay and got that Merc400 on the water with your existing harness. I hope you have lots of fun years with it.

And Ed, many thanks to you for your observations and harness specifics that come from your many years of experience with these older Mercs!

I had a fun weekend on the water too. I got my combo motor (part 1100SS and part 1000SS) that I've been working on for the past few weekends on the water for the first time and it did well...

Best of luck to all,
Marty
 
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