Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

[JasonJ]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I keep seeing comparisons of this war with the World Wars and Korea, and that is not even reasonable. In those wars, people sat down and either surrendered or a cease fire was initiated (Korea). Things were black and white. We stayed, the peace has remained. The people involved were not hobbled with a psychotic idealism that encourages destruction. Vietnam is the closest example, but even then it does not apply except for the weak dem resolve part. Stopping the spread of Communism is a bit different than going up against Islamofascists. Yes, we bailed out of Vietnam, yes people died, but the region stabilized for the most part, and there is no resource the entire world wants, unless you count 14 year old girls who "love you long time". This current war is unique. We have a region that controls the way of life of the modern world, populated by people who have hated each other longer than anyone else in the history of mankind. While I strongly feel the "fight 'em there so we don't fight 'em in our kitchen" theory is utter rubbish (They can cause mayhem any time they want, thanks to our porous borders), I also feel pulling out abrubtly would be a long term mistake.

We are still bumblefudging around over there. The surge is bollocks (if some works more works better, just brilliant), and don't even get me started on all those walls going up. Just who is planning this stuff? I am all for staying and finishing, but geeze, it isn't going to happen the way things are going right now.

Yeah yeah, it's easy to armchair quarterback, but we are seeing what is not working, lets get someone who can come up with something that does work. Lets get some military leadership that can plan and execute their plan without having to conform to the administrations 2 dimensional fantasyland, and lets get an administration who will just let the people with the brains do their job and just stay the eff out of it until it's time for them to take credit. I don't care if this admin starts with an R or a D, just get it done and get it done right...

 

[Coors]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I agree with Jasonj, but a Democratic admin ain't gonna let the military do it's job- the detest our armed forces.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I wish there was a choice here but there is not. The Democrats want defeat they smell the big political victory it will surely bring them. The money for our troops will never get in between their quest to get relected. Would you send your son or daughter to die for the current domestic Democrats' political gains? Since 1975 there is no way America can ever win a war against any informed and determined foe. #1 Our own media will make sure the enemy is always well informed. Any sucessfull counter measure by us will be widely exposed by our media without any repercussions. #2 All the enemy has to do is find a way to deliver explosives to kill innocents that cannot be stopped without very harsh replies. The enemy has found that: suicide bombers. The looney Left will not allow any harsh reply, and the media will amplify the suicide bombers' accomplishments CONSTANTLY. Now that this successful tactic is well known by all expect much more of this tactic, (as it has grown since the early 1980s). #3 Political success for the enemies within. That is the primary reason we are in trouble. America now rewards disloyalty. Vote to take us to war, change your mind when the going gets tough and insure our enemies get what they want. Our enemies in the late 1960s wanted John F Kerry and they got him!!! If a large part of the American public are soooo foolish that they reward this conduct then we get what we diserve. Six more articles for your reading pleasure.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/04/funding_the_troops.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/04/losing_the_war_in_congress_not.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0407/3658.html

http://reason.com/news/show/119793.html

http://www.suntimes.com/news/osullivan/354477,CST-EDT-osul24.article

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20070423-093052-6887r.htm

Respectfully, JR

 

[rolmops]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I wish there was a choice here but there is not.
Oh yes there is.

The Democrats want defeat they smell the big political victory it will surely bring them.
It is pure undiluted Limbaugh hog wash that any American wants defeat.That idea only exists in the minds of paranoid thinkers.

The money for our troops will never get in between their quest to get relected.
Currently the democrats in Congress and the Senate are proposing a 125 billion dollar support bill for the troops.

Would you send your son or daughter to die for the current domestic Democrats' political gains?
No way.But would you send your son or daughter off to a war under a commander in chief whose militairy experience exists of being AWOL,while being either high on cocaine or being drunk??????

The difference between Kerry and Bush is that Kerry did go to Vietnam,Bush went AWOL while staying home.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

"The Democrats want defeat they smell the big political victory it will surely bring them.
It is pure undiluted Limbaugh hog wash that any American wants defeat.That idea only exists in the minds of paranoid thinkers."

Quote dingy harry:
" We have lost the war in Iraq" Sounds like he not only wants defeat, but has conceeded it. He is an American isn't he? Well not in my book he's not, but legally he is.
He ya go rolmops

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

The pride that must have been welling up in all John Kerry supporters who actually know and are willing to own up to War Hero Johnny's record. A patriot in every sense of the word. Working with the enemy, calling his fellow soldiers barbarians, re-enacting war hero stuff for his little 8mm camera. Throwing his medals off a bridge, then not throwing his medals off a bridge, voting for the war, not voting for the war. For the pull out, then not for the pull out. Not hangin with Hanoi Jane, then admitting he was hangin with hanoi Jane.

I would take a civilian who had been in a coma since birth's war record over Kerry's. The man was a disgrace, is a disgrace, and shows all indications to continuing the trend. In the words of a good friend who actually saw combat in Vietnam, "carrying a wounded soldier to safety doesn't make you a hero, thats what your job was." He was awarded many decorations for valor, he has never looked at them since the war ended, but is sure he isn't going to throw them off a bridge. Supports the troops by cheering FOR them, and can't find a politician in Washington he can stand. But one thing is for sure, he is pulling for our troops to win, not by declaring defeat, not by calling them nazi's, not by calling them terrorists, not by spitting on them, by supporting them.

 

[QC]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

First of all, by any objective measure, we have already won the war in Iraq.

Why is it that we never hear this regardless of its obvious truth? Do you also ridicule the President for saying "Mission Accomplished"? I must assume you don't as you have basically said the same thing. Thanks PW, I have been meaning to ask this question, but you gave me a platform. Despite my little sarcastic question, I believe this and have no idea why it is not more widely held. We already won this war. We are now in the middle of a police action that is required as a result of the power vacuum left behind. We definitely underestimated the strength of that vacuum, but so what? Hind sight is . . . well you know.

I certainly would be more supportive of continued US military presense over there, if it were seen as somehow an interim step while political settlement were achieved, rather than a strategy unto itself.

Why is what you describe not possible as it is now? I do not see the contradiction that you apparently do . . . I do not have a crystal ball, but I am going to predict that one picks up where the other leaves off i.e. when there is less people being blown up by suicidal/homicidal maniacs, then we might be able to find some people who'd like to sit down and talk. Do you believe that the US thinks that Military presence is the only option forever? Where did you read that? Do you honestly believe that we will one day stand up and say "OK we're done straightening out this mess with firepower, have a good life, later."? If so, what leads you to believe that? I don't think history has shown that . . .

 

[PW2]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Why is it that we never hear this regardless of its obvious truth? Do you also ridicule the President for saying "Mission Accomplished"? I must assume you don't as you have basically said the same thing. Thanks PW, I have been meaning to ask this question, but you gave me a platform. Despite my little sarcastic question, I believe this and have no idea why it is not more widely held. We already won this war. We are now in the middle of a police action that is required as a result of the power vacuum left behind. We definitely underestimated the strength of that vacuum, but so what? Hind sight is . . . well you know.


Why is what you describe not possible as it is now? I do not see the contradiction that you apparently do . . . I do not have a crystal ball, but I am going to predict that one picks up where the other leaves off i.e. when there is less people being blown up by suicidal/homicidal maniacs, then we might be able to find some people who'd like to sit down and talk. Do you believe that the US thinks that Military presence is the only option forever? Where did you read that? Do you honestly believe that we will one day stand up and say "OK we're done straightening out this mess with firepower, have a good life, later."? If so, what leads you to believe that? I don't think history has shown that . . .

First of all, while I think it utter folly to have gone into Iraq in the first place, I do criticize this president for the "Mission Accomplished". The result of this was long predicted, yet inexplicably ignored. Powell understood this, warned all from the start, and he was promptly shown the exit.

The reality is the US military cannot maintain it's current policy in Iraq. We see this in Gates' announcement of extending troop deployments, and expediting new Nat'l Guard deployments. Everyone knows this. It does not take a rocket scientist.

It's a civil war. It was predictable. Just like in our civil war, as bloody as that was, we would not have put up with an occupying force either. As bloody as Iraq might get, the best we can hope for is to put together some sort of regional stability--which is going to require us getting out of this civil war somehow. It is going to take diplomacy, not troops. It is the only realistic option left.

In the famous words of Vonnegut, "So it goes"