Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

paultjohnson

Lieutenant Commander
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Jul 29, 2010
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1,560
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

21 yrs storing my boat, snowmobiles, ATV and with 1/4 tank or less of non oxygenated premium. Never had a fuel system problem. Filters are always spotless. I am lucky to have a gas station close by that sells non-ox prem. My 2 Cents. Store plastic tanks low , metal tanks like my 77 cutlass full to minimize surface exposed to air, moisture and resulting rust.
 

Philster

Captain
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Sep 15, 2009
Messages
3,342
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

I leave mine 9/10 full of premium w/ Stabil, because the biggest issue is loss of octane over time and when I use Stabil my engine starts much faster.

It sat near empty one year and I had no issues. ::shrug::

I've read that condensation issues are overblown, but part of me just puts faith in the boating crowd so I go 9/10 full.
 

109jb

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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

A few points.

Modern car gas tanks aren't open vented anymore, so any comparison between an open vented boat tank and a car is not valid. Car gas tanks are actually pressurized, which is why you hear air escaping when you remove the fuel filler cap on your car. No direct vent to the outside air and no condensation.

Water can condense in an open vent gas tank. Airplanes see changes in altitude, true, but the altitude doesn't change in the hangar. Saying it only happens because of the changes in altitude is false. I have seen it from direct experience. The longer they sit the more water they have. Unlike ethanol blend fuel, aviation gas can't hold anywhere near as much water in suspension and the water separates out easily. The separated layer though is just water, not the ethanol-water mix. On my airplane, I try to store it with full tanks. On those occasion where the fuel supplier isn't open when I come back from a trip, I put it away with partially filled tanks. On those occasions there is almost always at least a little water in the fuel when I sump the tanks. When left full there is never any water. And yes, pilots are trained to check the fuel sumps for water before the first flight of the day and after every fuel fill.

Ethanol fuels will absorb some water up to the point where they separate. The key is to keep the ethanol fuel from absorbing enough water to separate. Hence one of the reasons cars don't have open vent tanks anymore. IMO, keeping the tank full is the best way to do this as there is less room for condensation, and there is more fuel to absorb more condensation if it does occur.

I have 4 snowmobiles in a trailer in my back yard right now. During the season I run 87 octane as that is what is specified for all my sleds. For storage, I fill them up with high octane fuel and add a fuel stabilizer. I run the engines enough to get the stabilized fuel throughout the system and then I fog the engines. I do shut off the fuel valve and drain the carbs though. I have one fuel injected sled and that one I just run it through the system and fog. No draining of the fuel system. I don't start them again until the following season. Never had a problem with condensation, or separated fuel or poor running from octane loss, and all I can get near me is ethanol blend fuel. Incidentally, this is the same procedure I use for my boat.

For my boat, as already stated, I fill the tank because a full tank has less room for condensation. Also, most fuel tanks you can't get all of the fuel out of anyway. There is always a little left behind. If that 1 or 2 cups of fuel in there is ethanol blend then it won't take much water to cause separation. Unlike non-ethanol fuel, the separated layer is not just water, but an ethanol-water mix that is somewhat caustic.

As I said, for me I fill the tanks and stabilize the fuel, run it long enough to get it through the system, and then drain the carbs if carb equipped.

Everyone needs to make their own decision as to what they want to do. I'm just stating my reasoning and what has worked for me.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,478
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

When this subject comes up I always like to post this.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm
I agree that water getting into the fuel tanks is caused by either the cap leaking or it was delivered with water in it.

I just leave my tanks wherever they are and never worry about it. I have yet to see any water in my water separating filters.

As far as cars having closed fuel systems, has everything to do with emissions.
 

Lakes84

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
253
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

I store mine full with plenty of Marine Sta-bil. It's always a bonus to have have a full tank in the spring, and, if there's ever a long power outage during the winter I have 70 gallons of fuel for the generator.

What I great idea...I would have never thought of that!
 

Keepi time

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 12, 2011
Messages
103
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Why wouldn't the Water separater catch the water that accumilated over the winter? Full or empty.
 

Otis357

Cadet
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Aug 21, 2011
Messages
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Noob question.......... What about 2-stroke engines?
Would storing a tank with oil mixed in over the winter be a problem or is there a special marine stabil for this application?
 

Home Cookin'

Fleet Admiral
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May 26, 2009
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

water seperators don't collect the water from the tank. They collect some, but not all, of the water that is mixed with the gas as it passes through. But if a lot of water has accumulated at the bottom, that is all that passes through the seperator, and it will push through an into the engine.

Also, the phase seperation in ethanol/gas includes more than just water--it's nasty stuff.

So seperators are important but not what you want to rely on; you also have to do everything you can to keep water out.

Why wouldn't the Water separater catch the water that accumilated over the winter? Full or empty.

Two other points to consider:

1. Let's say you are storing the boat for 6 months, and fuel has a shelf life of 2-4 months untreated, 6-8 months treated. You have to consider: (a) how old is the gas at the start of the winter? Is it left over from July or brand new? (b) And how long will it take to run it out after you get back on the water in the spring? So it could be a whole lot older than just your storage time.

2. Storing gas over a long cold winter, especially if the temps are steady on a day to day basis, and if humidity is relatively low, is not as much of a challenge as "storing" it in the summer, when it's hot, humid, in the sun and temps swing 20* a day. So to me, the "full tank" advantage is more important in August in Virginia than it is in February in Maine, especially if you are inland.

and one last thing: filling now may be a hedge against rising gas prices.
 

Rocky_Road

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
1,798
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Just for thought: this is right from the Mercury/Mercruiser home page,

http://www.mercurymarine.com/servic...s/mercruiser/?category=ethanol#EthanolStorage

What should be done when storing boats with ethanol-blended fuels for extended periods?

Follow the instructions for normal storage preparation found in the Operation, Maintenance & Warranty manual. When preparing to store a boat for extended periods of two months or more, it is best to completely remove all fuel from the tank. If it is difficult or not possible to remove the fuel, maintaining a full tank of fuel with a fuel stabilizer added to provide fuel stability and corrosion protection is recommended. It is best to add the stabilizer and fuel treatment to the tank at the recommended dosage, run the engine for 10 minutes to allow the system to be cleaned, shut off the fuel valve to interrupt the fuel supply and allow the engine to run until it stops, and top off the tank until it?s full to reduce the amount of exchange with the air that might bring in condensation. Do not cap the tank vent and do not fill with fuel to the point of overflowing. Some extra space should be maintained in the tank to allow for expansion and contraction of the fuel with temperature changes. A partially full tank is not recommended because the void space above the fuel allows air movement that can bring in water through condensation as the air temperature moves up and down. This condensation could potentially become a problem.

Mercury Marine Quickstor can help maintain fuel systems in storage. It contains oxidation inhibitors to reduce oxidation and gum formation, metal-chelating agents to protect metal components from corrosion, water-absorbing agents to reduce the presence of free water, and dispersants to help suspend and disperse debris. When placing the boat back in service, be sure to reopen the fuel valve to the engine.
 

109jb

Lieutenant Commander
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Noob question.......... What about 2-stroke engines?
Would storing a tank with oil mixed in over the winter be a problem or is there a special marine stabil for this application?

When I had my old Starcraft, I would stabilize the premixed fuel and fill the tank like I do now for my non-premix boat. I didn't use any special stabilizer, normal stuff.
 

45Auto

Commander
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May 31, 2002
Messages
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

It's not real hard to figure out. The warmer the air, the more moisture it can hold. Raise the temp to 212 farenheit and ALL the moisture will be in the air! As the temp drops, the moisture condenses back out of the air. At high humidity levels, the moisture will condense out of the air at higher temps. You can calculate the temp that water will condense based on the humidity levels.

I just copied these webpages in the last few minutes. Look up a dewpoint chart:

dp-1.jpg


Look up the low temp for your area:

no.jpg


Dallas.jpg


boston.jpg


toronto.jpg


If the temp in your tank drops below the dewpoint, the water comes out of the air. Since your tank is vented, the air is constantly replaced with fresh air with the outside humidity in it.

You can see that in Dallas it will stay 10 degrees above the dewpoint, no condensation there. In Boston (Winthrop Beach Station) it will stay 7 degreea above the dewpoint, no condensation there. In Toronto, it will stay 10 degrees above the dewpoint, no condensation there.

However, in New Orleans the temp will drop to 68. The dewpoint is 70. Every surface (car windshields, gas tanks, whatever) that drops below 70 will have condensation form on it.

There's plenty of old threads about it. Unfortunately the search function on this forum sucks so badly that it's pretty much useless.
 

Fed

Commander
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
2,457
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Call Mythbusters.
 

45Auto

Commander
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May 31, 2002
Messages
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

You may find Shell Oil's thoughts on the subject of winterizing aircraft interesting. Pilots are a little more concerned about it than boaters.

Fill the fuel tanks. Ensuring that the fuel tanks are full prevents the build up of condensation in the tanks over winter. This condensation is inevitable if air is present in the tank and will in turn will lead to the build up of water in the bottom of the tank. This will again mean corrosion and potentially expensive tank repairs. This is particularly important if your aircraft is stored outside.

From "Winterizing Your Aircraft":

http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation/aeroshell/technical_talk/techart10_30071450.html

shell.jpg
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

However, in New Orleans the temp will drop to 68. The dewpoint is 70. Every surface (car windshields, gas tanks, whatever) that drops below 70 will have condensation form on it..
Not doubting your explanation. I just wonder what the temp of the tank will get down to which is what really matters. Since there is a mass around it including the mass/temp of the fuel itself, the temp dropping to 68 doesn't mean the air in the tank would necessarily drop to 68 unless the soak period was long. Also, the tank won't get up to the hight temp either. The dew point also is determined by the % humidity of the air in the tank. I know it is vented but the only air flow that exists will be due to the expansion and contraction of the fuel, the amount of air drawn in will be relatively small every day. Yes, it adds up but just wonder how much that would really be over time. You think the expansion contraction volume is even as much as the length of the vent hose?
 

scoutabout

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Oct 14, 2006
Messages
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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

With the Scout I store with tank full and stablized but drain the Yamaha's fuel system and carbs. I then give the carb bowls and engine fuel filter a shot of storage seal and close them up. In the spring I change the remote mounted water seperator. Knock on fibreglass this has worked fine for the last 4 years or so and I've had no issues. At some point I'd like to completely drain the tank to see if there's any water in the bottom but so far nothing has ever showed up in the remote filter. Since discovering the closest gas station to me sells ethanol-free fuel I've been using that and consequently glad to be free of the "when will ethanol bite me in the butt -- or not --" argument.
 

paultjohnson

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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

I people are worried about their gas tanks taking on moisture from the atmosphere. Why dont you just cover the vent with tape. If you are worried about expansion or contraction. Use a balloon or something that can inflate, deflate at will. Just close it off ??????
 

109jb

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Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

I don't worry about it. I just fill it and forget about it. No worrying on my part.
 

oldjeep

Admiral
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May 17, 2010
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6,455
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

The boat , extra cars, snowmobiles, snowblower and jetski all get parked with whatever gas is in them. No stabil or any other snake oil. Gas just isn't that sensative to being stored for 6-8 months. Then when it is time to un store them, they get started up and driven. Once every few years the snowmobile carbs need to be removed and cleaned at the start of the season.
 

kobe

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2011
Messages
145
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

doesn't really matter... full or empty it goes into storeage... boat, lawn tractor, sled.... etc... beginning of each season, (all machines - 2 and 4 strokes) tanks are drained and new gas is popped in. never had an issue once I get past first start and full rev to clear the throat. young feller loves it cuz he gets free gas for his cavalier!
 

kobe

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2011
Messages
145
Re: Winter storage: fuel tank full or empty??

Once every few years the snowmobile carbs need to be removed and cleaned at the start of the season.

not to argue but we have a 05 RS Vector and an 06 RS Rage (yammy's for those non sledders) and the carbs are golden... i get a drop of AVGAS from a buddy and we mix it with the first tank of the season... burns any crud/varnish in the carbs before they become an issue. probably only use 5 or 6 ounces to 5 gallons of gas
 
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