Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

[Shamus O'toole]

This comes off the pertronix post. Why is it that boat manufactures make new boat owners pay top dollor of old school technology when it comes to inboard gas engines?? It amazes me that the current line of outboard motors make the current line of inboards look like model T's.

http://www.crusaderengines.com/57.html

this is the current line up for Crusader marine. JC this 5.7 is an LT1 based motor. GM hasn't put that in a car for decades. Why not use the cureent GM or Ford engine line-up? Don't give me cost. For example...here is the current Sea-Ray line up. This 2010 205 Sport is using engine tech from the 90's. It's friggin carberated and cost $42,000.
http://boats.bemarine.com/Page.aspx...1438/view/Details/2010-Sea-Ray-205-Sport.aspx

$42,000 for 20+ year old technology......

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

So you want them to put in the GM 5.3L instead? It has aluminum heads so need to add freshwater cooling so add a few grand. It develops its peak torque at a much higher RPM than the 5.0L so will need to prop down so it will actually go slower. Anything else?

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

So you want them to put in the GM 5.3L instead? It has aluminum heads so need to add freshwater cooling so add a few grand. It develops its peak torque at a much higher RPM than the 5.0L so will need to prop down so it will actually go slower. Anything else?

my outboard has aluminum heads....and the peak torque can be adjusted with a cam change. Just like they did in the 5.0 and 5.7.....anything eles??

 

[koberlee]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Maybe not the latest and greatest engines but Carbs and Point style ignitions come on!
The auto industry hasn't put a carb on anything since the mid 80's. I know that by staying carbed you reduce the amount of electronics but the leaps and bounds fuel injection has made and still you have to pay a premium to get a boat with it.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

my outboard has aluminum heads....and the peak torque can be adjusted with a cam change. Just like they did in the 5.0 and 5.7.....anything eles??

Your outboard also doesn't have a steel block and torque curves are more than just a cam change.

And forget about the Ford engines. Ford got out of the marine business years ago. The marine industry is at the mercy of GM or designing their own motors.

As far as fuel injection goes, the main reason fuel injection is used on auto engines is for emission and fuel economy reasons. Marine engines don't have emmision requirements until this year and that is why you still see carbs. Carbs are cheap, very reliable and cost less than the fuel injection. Fuel injection on boats may be a little more fuel efficient than a carb but until recently, have never used a closed loop system with O2 sensors to get all of the potential for fuel economy.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Your outboard also has an aluminum block. All aluminum or all iron is fine, it's when you mix and match is when you run into problems.

Bruce is right on the money with the newest on GM blocks, they are designed to produce HP at higher RPMS, and also a higher operating temperature.

Engine RPMS is almost irrelevent because you can only spin a prop so fast. And high operating temps are bad for boats.

The block is the block, and it doesn't really matter if they still use the 5.0 or 5.7. It's everything that goes on it. Ignition, starting, fuel, charging, fuel systems. There is nothing wrong with carbs on a boat, you just have to keep the fuel fresh and clean.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Your outboard also doesn't have a steel block and torque curves are more than just a cam change.

And forget about the Ford engines. Ford got out of the marine business years ago. The marine industry is at the mercy of GM or designing their own motors.

and they make the 5.3 with an aluminum block. The marine industry is at the mercy of GM? Crusader, Mercruiser, volvo are huge companies and if they wanted to they could retool to marinize the current line up of GM motors. Still why the high cost a new boat with technology from the 1990's? I'm talking baseline boats. No electronics...basic hull and motor.

 

[Aviator5]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Man, I love carburated engines! They so much fun to work on.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

The aluminum blocks are very limited production and do have steel sleeves.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Your outboard also has an aluminum block. All aluminum or all iron is fine, it's when you mix and match is when you run into problems.

Bruce is right on the money with the newest on GM blocks, they are designed to produce HP at higher RPMS, and also a higher operating temperature.

Engine RPMS is almost irrelevent because you can only spin a prop so fast. And high operating temps are bad for boats.

The block is the block, and it doesn't really matter if they still use the 5.0 or 5.7. It's everything that goes on it. Ignition, starting, fuel, charging, fuel systems. There is nothing wrong with carbs on a boat, you just have to keep the fuel fresh and clean.

lets see..answered the aluminum block part.

Newer motors run at a higher temps in the aoutomotive world for emission reasons. A simple thermostat and cumputer retune takes care of that. (we do it all the time on performance cars)

The newer LS blocks are FAR superior to the old SBC blocks. First they have stronger mains and are cross bolted mains. The oiling system is far superior and the head design is mush better.

True there is nothing wrong with carbs but a properly tuned EFI system we produce more power and torque and get better fuel ecomony both in the automotive industry and the marine industry. Thats not a guess thats a fact. We run a 1000hp EFI Mustang that gets driven on the street...alot...and a 36ft Fountian with twin supercharged EFI 540's, so as far as EFI goes i know what I'm talikng about.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

The aluminum blocks are very limited production and do have steel sleeves.

and water does not touch those steel sleeves in a 4.8,5.3,6.0...ect...ect...

 

[JustJason]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

The marine industry is at the mercy of GM?

to a degree, their inboard line really is.

Mercruiser, volvo are huge companies and if they wanted to they could retool to marinize the current line up of GM motors.

Mercruiser is not as big as you think it is. They are not in the red, but they don't have high earnings. VP would be in a better position to gear up if they were to produce their own engines.
You can buy a toyota camry for 20k for 2 reasons.
1. Toyota sells millions of camrys a year
2. Competition is high in the automotive marketplace.

Boats are expensive because
1. Mercruiser doesn't sell as many units a year, therefor the cost per unit is higher
2. Less competition means manufactors can hold their priceline/profit

Tooling up an engine building plant from scratch is extremely expensive. The cost could be in the tens of millions. Just for the equipment and the plant. Merc just doesn't have the money to put it together.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

guys this has been fun but i gotta run...keep em coming and see ya later.
Brian

 

[JustJason]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Newer motors run at a higher temps in the aoutomotive world for emission reasons. A simple thermostat and cumputer retune takes care of that. (we do it all the time on performance cars)

Not just for emission reasons. For HP reasons as well. The higher you can get your combustion chamber temps the more HP and engine will develop. Combustion chamber temps are determined by design plus load. Heat and HP go hand and hand.
Changing a thermostat does not change combustion chamber temps.
A 350 in a 20ft donzi is going to see half the load of a 350 in a 35ft grady.
But it's the same 350 that goes into either one.

The newer LS blocks are FAR superior to the old SBC blocks. First they have stronger mains and are cross bolted mains. The oiling system is far superior and the head design is mush better.

Maybe, I don't really know. But there is nothing wrong with the mains or oiling system on all the existing 3.0s, 4.3s, 5.0s ect ect. Heads are heads, stock heads work well, Vortechs flow better.

but a properly tuned EFI system we produce more power

Not necessarily. EFI and Carb is nothing more than a fuel delivery system.

EFI can automatically compensate for altitude, atmo pressure, temperature by flowing more or less fuel, whereas a carb cannot.
However, if you had 2 identicle boats, 2 identicle engines except 1 was EFI and the other was a race tuned carb tuned for the conditions of that day. The boats would have equal power but the throttle response would be better on the carb. The inherent problem with carbs isn't the carb itself, it's the changing weather conditions.
Because conditions change carbs are jetted for average use at a given altitude.

 

[tommays]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

We are right at the end of carb inboards and heading into all EFI/Catalytic Converter on even the 3.0 base boats which with the cost increase is one of the reasons some small outboards models are coming back

Should be a joy when the cats die

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

and water does not touch those steel sleeves in a 4.8,5.3,6.0...ect...ect...

You sure about that? Regardless, that block is probably very expensive. Would be better to design a steel head to go along with the steel block.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Boats are expensive because
1. Mercruiser doesn't sell as many units a year, therefor the cost per unit is higher
2. Less competition means manufactors can hold their priceline/profit

AND, they're a part of the recreation industry where "everything" is expensive and they know people are willing to pay big bucks to have fun......

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I like carbs better. Get out on a big lake where you can't see land and the old gal quits. You can pull your tools out and take apart the carb to clean the crap out and get back on your way. A computer crashes or injectors clog up, and you stuck out on the lake hoping someone will see that you need help. BTDT

I actually have electronic ignition, but I carry an old points/condenser distributor in case of an emergency. Old school is called that for a reason, it usually always works and reliable even though lacking in performance at times.

 

[Aviator5]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I like carbs better. Get out on a big lake where you can't see land and the old gal quits. You can pull your tools out and take apart the carb to clean the crap out and get back on your way. A computer crashes or injectors clog up, and you stuck out on the lake hoping someone will see that you need help. BTDT

I actually have electronic ignition, but I carry an old points/condenser distributor in case of an emergency. Old school is called that for a reason, it usually always works and reliable even though lacking in performance at times.

But if that happens to a "computer kid" with carburated engine, he'll be as helpless.
Well he'll be helpless with EFI engine too

 

[ajgraz]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Companies do not innovate unless competetion or regulation forces it.