Help With Manifolds/Riser Installation

[RussWalters]

I am working on a 2005 VP 5.0 GLE that I am working on installing risers/manifolds. I am using all Barr Marine parts.

The installation yesterday went pretty well with a couple of minor exceptions.

1) I was not able to get the gasket 100% removed from the engine block after following all of the service manual instructions of gasket remover, plastic scraper and 80 grit sandpaper. I did however get it down to what I thought was an acceptable surface (more on that)
2) I did not complete seat the exhaust hose exiting the Port riser and when I started the engine through fresh water flush, I had water everywhere coming out of the riser.

After I properly seated the hose on the riser, the engine seemed to run fine for about 10 minutes with no leaks.

I went be bed last night feeling accomplished but woke up in the middle of the night really uncomfortable that I wasn't able to get the gaskets totally removed. So, I pulled the risers/manifolds tonight and low and behold there was some water pooled in the exhaust portion of the riser and some rust colored water came out when I took them off. The entrances to the pistons (?) seemed wet, but just around the 1st quarter inch or so.

Here are the pictures I took of inside the cylinder heads and also from inside the manifolds where you can see the rust.

Any thoughts on if I need to be concerned at the current condition of either the Manifolds or Cylinders? The engine was only run for 10 minutes with fresh hose water and only sat for 24 hours before I tore it apart.

Apologies for the long winded post, but I'm in a bit of a panic and hoping that me trying to save money didn't end up costing me big time!

Thanks in advance for the great insight you all have.

RW

 

[Scott Danforth]

Manifold to head surface is a dry connection. Use a razor blade to scrape the old gasket and a large flat file to clean up the surface.

if you had water pooling in there, it is your manifold to elbow gasket that was leaking. Make sure both surfaces of the manifold and the elbow are perfectly flat using a large flat file

 

[RussWalters]

Manifold to head surface is a dry connection. Use a razor blade to scrape the old gasket and a large flat file to clean up the surface.

if you had water pooling in there, it is your manifold to elbow gasket that was leaking. Make sure both surfaces of the manifold and the elbow are perfectly flat using a large flat file

Ok, that's good to know. Any concerns with the way the cylinders look?

 

[Scott Danforth]

The exaust ports are fine. Clean the gasket material off

 

[Silverbullet555]

I'm not sure if all would agree with the way I have done surface work or not.

But, when I checked my risers last year, I used a piece of 1/4 or 3/8 glass with a piece of aluminum angle taped to it I then used spray adhesive and glued sandpaper to the other side of the glass. Using wd40 is a lubricant I proceeded to clean up the mating surfaces on both pieces and the glass kept it flat. I used the same technique to clean up the block on my wife's Subaru when I rebuilt it, albeit a bigger piece of glass.

 

[tpenfield]

Was there any signs of water/rust in the old manifold or exhaust ports/valves before you changed the parts & gaskets?

Looks like some of the cylinders got a drink of water.

I would remove the spark plugs and see if you get any water out of the cylinders by spinning the engine.

I agree with Scott, the gasket between the manifold and riser/elbow is/was leaking. Sounds like you did not get a proper seal when you did the installation.

I'd run a cylinder leak test before you put things back together.

 

[RussWalters]

Was there any signs of water/rust in the old manifold or exhaust ports/valves before you changed the parts & gaskets?

Looks like some of the cylinders got a drink of water.

I would remove the spark plugs and see if you get any water out of the cylinders by spinning the engine.

I agree with Scott, the gasket between the manifold and riser/elbow is/was leaking. Sounds like you did not get a proper seal when you did the installation.

I'd run a cylinder leak test before you put things back together.

Ted,

There was definitely some rust in the old manifolds that I took off, but didn’t really see any in the exhaust ports. However I didn’t look all the way in to the pistons so I don’t know if there is anything different or not.

Can you explain a bit more about seeing if I get water out of the engine when removing the the spark plugs? As for the leak test, is that done with out the riser/manifold on?

thanks in advance for the help?

 

[Lou C]

When you installed the elbow (riser) to manifold gasket did you use sealer? I had called the tech guy at Barr and asked about this and he said to use Permatex Aviation sealer and torque to 25-30 ft lbs. Then after the initial warm up run re-torque. I did not have any leaks doing it this way. To be on the safe side what you could do is clean up all the sealing surfaces as best you can and re-assemble the manifold and elbow (riser). Then test it off the engine by hooking up a water hose to the water inlet on the manifold, run water though it and check to make sure there is no water leaking down by the ports that match up with the exhaust ports in the cyl heads. While this will make them more difficult to re-install since they are heavier and more bulky at least you will know for sure they do not leak.

As far as the cyl head exhaust ports sealing surface, I had 3 sets of OMC batwings on my engine and even though the sealing surfaces were not perfect I never had an exhaust leak there. I just got them as clean as I could and evenly torqued the nuts (OMC used studs and nuts instead of bolts).

Checking to see if there is any water in the cyls, what you can do is disable the ignition system and ground the high tension lead from the ignition coil and crank the engine over to see if water comes out of the exhaust ports. If you see water come out then I'd spray fogging oil in the cyls, crank it again to spread it around.

 

[RussWalters]

Lou,

super helpul. I did not use gasket sealer but did pick up permeates copper gasket sealer per the VP bulletins and will be using that this time around.

Super newbie question, is disabling the ignition system as easy as removing the wires from the ignition coil top of the engine? And it’s ok to crank it out of water and with manifolds off? Just making sure I understand correctly.

Thanks again!

 

[Bt Doctur]

You cannot go wrong using PermaTex Aviation sealant
As easy as removing the plug from the coil or pulling the MOB lanyard

 

[RussWalters]

You cannot go wrong using PermaTex Aviation sealant
As easy as removing the plug from the coil or pulling the MOB lanyard

Oh that’s great! I didn’t think put it together that pulling he MOB lanyard will stop plugs from firing. Super great hack there!

 

[RussWalters]

Should I be pulling the spark plugs at this point as well?

 

[tpenfield]

Ted,

There was definitely some rust in the old manifolds that I took off, but didn’t really see any in the exhaust ports. However I didn’t look all the way in to the pistons so I don’t know if there is anything different or not.

Can you explain a bit more about seeing if I get water out of the engine when removing the the spark plugs? As for the leak test, is that done with out the riser/manifold on?

thanks in advance for the help?

When a 4-stroke engine is idling there is a process known as reversion that occurs. It is at the top of the exhaust stroke . . . both the intake valve and the exhaust valve are slightly open as the engine (cylinder) is transitioning from exhausting to intake. The exhaust is under pressure and the intake is under vacuum. For a slight instant of time the gases/air 'reverses' its flow and some of the exhaust gets pulled back into the cylinder.

If there is also water present in the exhaust manifold, water also gets pulled back into the cylinder along with the gases. The water can cause a hydro-lock condition since it does not compress well at all. The rust that is visible in the cylinder head ports, the valve stems, and the valves themselves from the pictures you posted would indicate that they have seen water.

So, you may have (or had) water in the cylinders. Pulling the spark plugs will shed some light on that possibility.

A cylinder leak test would indicate if the valves or valve seats have any pitting from the rust.

 

[Lou C]

You can remove the plugs if you want but with the manifolds off if there is any water it will come right out of the exhaust ports in the cyl head. One last thing, I would hook up the water hose/muffs just open it about half way to provide water to the impeller so it does not wear from cranking the engine over. Impeller turns whenever the engine cranks.

 

[RussWalters]

When a 4-stroke engine is idling there is a process known as reversion that occurs. It is at the top of the exhaust stroke . . . both the intake valve and the exhaust valve are slightly open as the engine (cylinder) is transitioning from exhausting to intake. The exhaust is under pressure and the intake is under vacuum. For a slight instant of time the gases/air 'reverses' its flow and some of the exhaust gets pulled back into the cylinder.

If there is also water present in the exhaust manifold, water also gets pulled back into the cylinder along with the gases. The water can cause a hydro-lock condition since it does not compress well at all. The rust that is visible in the cylinder head ports, the valve stems, and the valves themselves from the pictures you posted would indicate that they have seen water.

So, you may have (or had) water in the cylinders. Pulling the spark plugs will shed some light on that possibility.

A cylinder leak test would indicate if the valves or valve seats have any pitting from the rust.

Ok. I'm tracking with you. So what is the best way to determine if there is still water in the cylinders? Just crank the engine to get it out?

As for the leak down test, can that be performed with the risers/manifolds off? If water did get in the cylinders, would 24 hour exposure to fresh water only cause enough damage to cause pitting from rust? Or would a poor leak down test suggest that it was a pre-existing issue?

Really appreciate your entertaining so many questions. I'm just trying to absorb as much knowledge as possible from those who have "been there" before.

Thanks again,
RW

 

[RussWalters]

You can remove the plugs if you want but with the manifolds off if there is any water it will come right out of the exhaust ports in the cyl head. One last thing, I would hook up the water hose/muffs just open it about half way to provide water to the impeller so it does not wear from cranking the engine over. Impeller turns whenever the engine cranks.

Would that not spew water all over the place with the hose off the manifolds?

 

[Lou C]

You could just disconnect the output hose from your impeller housing at the thermostat housing and point it down. This will save you from wearing the impeller and wear plate. You can do the same thing, when doing the compression test as described below.

As far as the leak down test, what I'd do is just carefully re-assemble the exhaust and then warm the engine up. Re-torque the bolts as per manufacturer specs. Then remove the spark plugs and disable the ignition, and set the throttle wide open and perform a compression test. This is quicker and easier than a leak down test and will give you a good guide as to whether or not your valves are sealing well and the piston rings are holding compression. If the comp test is good, I'd just run it but if your comp test is low (ie like lower than 120 in any cyl) then do a leak down test to see where you are losing compression (rings, intake valve or exhaust valve).