1964 Buick v6 engine knowledge needed

[slowhand35]

I recently purchased a pretty rough1964 Johnson deluxe 17 ft. Boat without the factory trailer, missing the external outdrive and has a stuck factory 225 v6 Buick motor that is also missing parts.
I'll be posting in other sections with questions on those.
For now, I have a couple questions about the engine.
I'm a fair hand at mechanics, so rebuilding the engine isn't a problem.

My questions, this 225 v6 was basically the same block for many years until the bell housing mount was changed.
Does anyone know for certain through personal experience if one of these v6 engines from a later year, say mid 1980's for example, can be stripped of the intake with fuel injection and other modern parts that require the computer, ECM, etc. and replace them with the old factory intake with carb, distributor, etc. Basically using the core block to build and replace the old one ?

I'm asking because it may be cheaper ($100) and easier for me to pick up a good used motor of this type in my normal circles rather than starting with an old block with rusted cylinders.

Second question,
Is it still possible to find the omc exhaust manifold and other water pumping parts for these old motors ?
The one manifold that's still there is rusted and split down the middle, I have no idea what the other parts were or how they were assembled.
I have the Seloc outdrive manual for 1964, no real pictures of my engine or boat, but great overall info.

Thanks for any help

 

[Scott Danforth]

You can use any REAR WHEEL DRIVE Buick V6. Stay away from the front drives.

However any that you find will need to be rebuilt.

Your existing motor is an odd fire. In 1978, the even fire motor came out. If you stick with an odd fire motor, you can use your existing distributor

If you use a 1978 or later, you need a marine distributor for an even fire motor

Get a factory manual, your Seloc manual is a knee pad at best

Buy new manifolds, etc. BTW, OMC parts are getting near difficult to source. It would be cheaper to find a late model Mercruiser 4.3/alpha 1-gen2 and rebuild your transom

 

[jimmbo]

I agree with Scott about reconstruction of the transom and replacing the old OMC Stringer with a MerCrusier or a Volvo Penta I/O. The old OMC unit will be a money pit as parts for the outdrive are getting rarer, and being a 54, almost 55 year old unit, it will require parts.
That big gaping hole in the transom will need a properly engineered rebuilding if it is to be expected to last.

 

[slowhand35]

Thanks for the info guys, it's extremely helpful.
I looked at some post about mercrusier conversions, I was thinking I may need to go that route if things looked bleak.
Thought it best to ask the pros first.
I'll pull the engine and put it on pause until I get the re-foam going.
Still a lot to keep me busy.
I can see what a transon hole redesign will run me as well.
Thanks again

 

[southkogs]

That boat is so ugly that it's beautiful! I've never had the time, skill or space to do a full restoration. But that is one boat that if I ever find one in close to reasonable condition - I'm grabbing it.

If you think you're going to rebuild the transom and repower, you may want to spend some time looking through the RESTORATION FORUM. Depending on all of what you have to do to the boat, you may even start a restoration topic and let the collective offer some suggestions on the way.

Welcome aboard.

 

[aimlow]

50 year old obsolete raw water cooled engine? You could convert to a new Chevy based engine for less money.

 

[Scott Danforth]

if you stay with the Buick V6, this will help [h=1]Buick V6 Casting Numbers and Internal Specs For Most Years
Compiled by Joel Vande Berg[/h]

Year	CID	Liter	Bore	Stroke	Description	Block Casting	Crank Forging	Head Casting
1982	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Turbo Charged, Crank may have 5/8" or 3/4" Pulley Bolt Hole	25506818	1260877
						25514290
1981-79	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Turbo Charged, Crank may have 5/8" or 3/4" Pulley Bolt Hole	25506818	1260877	25506293
						25506397		25504443
1978	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Turbo Charged, Crank may have 5/8" or 3/4" Pulley Bolt Hole	1254083	1260877	1257051
						1261438	1257125	1257722
							1255674
1982	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even Fire, Crank may have 5/8" or 3/4" Pulley Bolt Hole	25506818	1260877
						25514290
1981-79	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Crank may have 5/8" or 3/4" Pulley Bolt Hole	25506818	1260877	25506293
						25506397	1257125	25504443
						25505554	1255674	1262098
						25514290		1261377
						1261787
1978-77	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Split Rod Pin Crank, Even Fire Engine	1254083	1257125	1257051
						1255862	1260877	1257661
						1261438	1255674	1257722
1977	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Even-Fire, Straight Rod Pin Crank, Odd Fire Engine w/Integrated Dist. Drive	1254083	1255645	1257051
						1255862	1255846	1257661
						1261438	1357898	1257722
							1378354
1976-75	231	3.8	3.80	3.40	V6, Odd-Fire, Straight Rod Pin Crank, Odd Fire Engine w/Non-Integrated Dist. Drive	1249432	1357898	1249175
							1378351	1254164
							1378354
1967-74	225	3.7	3.75	3.40	V6, Odd-Fire, Kaiser Jeep Corp/AMC	1358435	1357898	1358676
						1396736		1368767
						1381623
						1375162
						991503
1963-65	225	3.7	3.75	3.40	V6, Odd-Fire, FWD/RWD w/one barrel Carb	1396736	1327898	1358767
1961-63	198				V6, Odd-Fire, FWD/RWD Buick applications only	1349430

Block, Head, Crank - Part Numbers

Application	Year	Block	Head	Crank
3.8L RWD	1975-76	1249432	.	.
3.8L RWD	1977	1254083	1237722	1257125
.	.	1255862	.	.
.	.	1232438	.	.
3.8L RWD	1978	1261438	1257661	1260877
.	.	1261787	1257051	2551229
.	.	25505554	.	.
Turbo RWD	.	1261438	1257661	Rolled Fillets
3.8L RWD	1979	1261787	1262098	25500229
.	.	25505554	25504443	.
Turbo RWD	.	25514290	25504443	.
.	.	25505554	25504443	Rolled Fillets
3.8L RWD	1980-81	25506818	25505900	See 1978
	.	.	25506293	.
Turbo Monte/Regal	.	25506818	25505900	See 1978
	.	.	25506293	.
Turbo Riviera	.	25506818	25505900	See 1978
	.	25506485	25506293	.
3.8L RWD	1982	25506818	25510191	See 1978
.	.	.	25514290	.
Turbo Regal	.	25506818	25510191	See 1978
.	.	.	25514290	.
Turbo Riviera	.	25506481	25510191	See 1978
.	.	25524289	.	.
3.8L RWD	1983	25524289	25518445	See 1978
		25506397	.	.
Turbo Regal	.	25524289	25518445	See 1978
Turbo Riviera	.	25524289	25518445	See 1978
3.8L RWD	1984	25524290	25518445	See 1978
.	.	25528601	.	.
.	.	25520040	.	.
Turbo Regal	.	25520040	25518445	See 1978
.	.	25518603	.	.
Turbo Riviera	.	25520040	25518445	See 1978
.	.	25520042	.	.
.	.	25528603	.	.
3.8L RWD	1985	25524140	25518445	See 1978
.	.	25520329	.	.
Turbo Regal	.	25520329	25518445	See 1978
Turbo Riviera	.	25520231	25518445	See 1978
FWD (Flat lifters)	.	25520043	25518445	25514267
3.8L RWD	1986	25526109	25518445	See 1978
Turbo Regal	.	25526109	25518445	See 1978
FWD Flat Lifters	.	25526110	25524248	25514267
FWD Roller Lifters	.	25526111	25524248	25514267
3.8L RWD	1987	25526109	25518445	See 1978
Turbo Regal	.	25526109	25518445	See 1978
FWD Roller Lifters	.	25526110	25524248	25514267
.	.	25526111	25529889	25527515
FWD Roller Lifters	1988	25528801	25527515	25514267
FWD 3800 Roller	.	25532617	25529723	25530502
.	.	.	25522646	.
3800 FWD Roller	1989	25528801	25527515	25514267
Turbo Trans Am	.	25526109	25536702	25511229
3800 FWD Roller	1990	25531617	25534250	25530502
.	.	.	25532646	.
3800 EV6	.	25532674	25534250	25534737
4.1L RWD	1968-1972	3877178	3895052	.
.	.	3850817	3927763	.
4.1L RWD	1973-1976	366855	3962084	.
.	.	348675	14002012	.
.	.	328575	370696	.
.	.	743483	355795	.
.	.	358675	377133	.
4.1L RWD	1980-1984	25506484	25504443	.
.	.	25505553	25505900	.
.	.	25514291	25506293	.
.	.	.	25518445

 

[Lou C]

I can't imagine the hassles of trying to re-hab both the old Buick V6 and the OMC stringer drive in this application. If you want a boat you can use, without worrying about what is going to break next and of course that part will be NLA, convert to Mercruiser or an outboard conversion if practical.

 

[Redrig]

Stringer parts are still around, the stringer part doesnt scare me , the buick part would though.

I would get rid of that Buick and drop a chevy in there at a minimum. I am sure that would involve a new intermediate at the least , but thats no biggie.

I have a stringer / ford combo and while not ideal I can always find parts for it . That buick I would expect would be very problematic finding manifolds , risers , dizzy , etc.

 

[kenny nunez]

The brackets that attach the engine to the stringer cross brace will not fit on a Chevy engine. The transom thickness on the OMC boats is only 1/4” thick so it would not be too hard to build it up for a later drive system.
As Red rig says parts are still available for that model but you have to be able to DIY on repairs. As much as I liked the old stringer models I would have to go with a later style system. I worked on a few of those boats and they were the best engineered and assembled at that time. There was a lot attention to detail. There is one in the James Bond movie “Thunde ball” that was filmed at Grand Cayman.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I was a diehard Buick V6 builder in the late 80's, early 90's.....I have every "bible" known to that motor for building them, racing them, etc...... however for what it cost me to build a 330hp Naturally aspirated Buick in 1988 that I had stuffed into an Opel GT for a bit, It cost me less to build a 550hp Big Block for the boat a year ago

finding parts for the buick is easy.....finding parts cheaply is another issue. then there is the OMG drive that is actually missing per post #1

for the boat in question, I would jump onto a 4.3/A1G2 and mod the transom and stringers as needed.

 

[slowhand35]

Thanks everyone for your input
Scott, thanks for the detailed motor info, I'm a Mopar guy myself

I have thought a lot about what direction I should go in and I haven't made any decision yet.
The floor and external condition are my main focus now
South Carolina weather isn't the greatest this time of year and apparently I live in a rain belt.

I'm preparing to pull the engine and since the outdrive from the spider gear out is missing, I will probably
remove the through hull section as well.
This will give me an idea of the condition the transom is actually in for use or reconstruction.

I don't think I will redo the original v6 motor, My idea of restoration is not to factory original, but fully functional
for use, so a different outfit will be my direction.
I actually found a complete OMC outdrive mated to a straight 6 165 motor from early 1970's, motor is stuck but complete.
I haven't really investigated it in detail, but that's an option as well, The hole is different for this outdrive as well I believe.
I think I read somewhere that the deluxe also came with a straight 6 as well.

I don't really need anything crazy powerful, I don't need to get across the lake in 8 seconds, I will be fishing from the boat
in freshwater, so spot A to spot B is fine.
I'll keep my eyes open for all the suggested outdrive combo's and see what makes itself available to me

Thanks again

 

[Scott Danforth]

With the stringer drive, you undo the boot and remove the motor AND the intermediate housing as a unit. Do not try to remove tgem separately, it would make your job harder

 

[Redrig]

And you can convert to later years of stringers , nother just the electric shift units , you could swap in a drive from up to 86ish , they all used the same hole in transom you would just need the controls as well.

so you can definitely widen your search

 

[kenny nunez]

The in line 6 did not come out until 72-73 . They were all “Low Profile” models, 4” shorter. The same time the ball gears went from being pressed on to a retaining nut arrangement. This also means the transom hole is lower. None of the Buick stringer mount hardware will fit. If you happen to “LUCK OUT” and get a good “High Profile” drive unit the upper gear ratio is slightly different but it may be corrected with propping. If your intermediate housing is still good the drive coupling from the Buick will interchange so that you could keep the “High Profile” set up as the intermediate housing is drilled for the Chevy pattern. You may have to route the exhaust through the transom. Hopefully the drive shaft is not rusted in the drive coupling. If it is you are in trouble. Try to post some pictures.

 

[slowhand35]

Thanks for the info on pulling the motor and drive section together Scott, pulling them separately was exactly what I had planned after browsing the Seloc manual

Great info on the extended swap options as well Red, Thank you

Kenny, Thank you, that is great detailed info on the inline 6
That's the kind of info That's not just laying around to be used.
I could pick that old boat up with the inline for nearly nothing.
You saved me a a good bit of moving labor and hull disposal.
And I'm not sure what condition the intermediate section is in, its still in the boat

I'm going to try to attach a couple pictures so you guys can see what I'm working with.
I took the heads off the motor to see how bad the cylinders we're, I also have a starboard exhaust manifold that's split and the intake and carb, no other outdrive parts just what's pictured
if they don't load I'll figure it out shortly

 

[Scott Danforth]

Seloc manual

throw the Seloc manual away, or use it when you are camping instead of toilet paper.

the worst bit of information is in the Seloc and Haynes manuals.

if you plan on keeping the OMG drive and Buick, then I highly suggest a factory manual.

 

[Scott Danforth]

there is a photo tutorial in the rules and guidelines forums

 

[jimmbo]

throw the Seloc manual away, or use it when you are camping instead of toilet paper.

Doesn't work well, too slippery, and getting a paper cut in that area...

 

[slowhand35]

Thanks Scott, I just got an old factory manual, much better detail, pictures, and instructions
I checked the picture tutorial and followed the instructions, now I get an unknown error message.
Photos are all around 200kb so size shouldn't be the problem, maybe I have them named wrong or something
I'll keep plinking around with it