Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

[Samthomas33]

Hi all, this is my first post so hello to everyone! Right now my problem, I've got a 1972 85hp evinrude which we've had for about 7 year and in all this time it has never run properly. It takes for ever to start but once it goes it will start on the button after that, but then within half an hour/constant throttle it starts to bog down and miss fire, then won't start. If you feel the block after this only one side of it warm and the other bank is cold. So I'm assuming it only running on 2. Now one of the main problems is the points, you adjust them to the correct gap (which can any one confirm for me? As I'm just going from word of mouth) and then it runs great but when it starts to bog down you recheck the points and one of them has closed up! hense why it's running on 2! Now when I set the points I noticed that the lobe on the points assemble doesn't sit on the cam, so as the engine turns and the cam lobe comes around, it hits the points lobe and causes it to open, now I'm now sure if I'm right in saying this but isn't the points Lobe suppose to constantly be in contact with the cam?

Another problem it might be, is it worth me changing the coil and power pack? Or what do you think? And where the hell do I get spares for it as I can't find any anywhere, just the states!

I really do hope some one can help as 7 years of this is begining to get to me, I've been rescued more times than I care to remember!

Cheers every one and fingers crossed x!

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

Any one?

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

How old are the breaker point assemblies? Is there movement in the base plate from side to side?

First, you have to confirm that there is actually no spark; an inductive timing light is good for that.

 

[oldcatamount]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

On an older motor, sometimes it's best to gap the points at .018 instead of 020. This helps adjust for wear. Is there any wear visible on the cam itself? Might the screw that secures the points be stripped or not the correct size? The points (once set) should be well tightened down and then they shouldn't move, if they are still moving, then I would look at the cam itself for excessive wear that might make the points "jump" or bounce. You could also have a weak coil that goes away after it gets warmed up. Hard to say for sure but don't give up.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

It takes for ever to start but once it goes it will start on the button after that,

Check that the choke plates are pulling full shut, I have see them open up a tad when cranking due to voltage drop,adjusting pull in depth sometime helps this.

Now one of the main problems is the points, you adjust them to the correct gap (which can any one confirm for me? As I'm just going from word of mouth) and then it runs great but when it starts to bog down you recheck the points and one of them has closed up! hense why it's running on 2!

These points are phased and both control the ignition pack as you have a rotor button, the points closing up are thus your missfire,bog and no restart... they do not control individual cylinders. The point should be set at .010 and 1 click, if detent is bad (cant feel it) that why points are closing. It will never run correctly at a higher setting (above .013)

 

[F_R]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

You obviously aren't setting the points correctly. You should rotate the shaft till one set of points is open as far as it will, then adjust that set to .009"-.010". Rotate the shaft till the other set is open as far as it will, and set those to the same gap. They should not be closing up and probably aren't. You ARE setting the gap by turning the allen screw----aren't you? .009"-.010" means just that, not .007 or .012".

Make sure everything is clean in there. Lubricate the anti-reverse ring VERY sparingly with EP lube. One drop MAXIMUM of oil on the felt wiper, or better yet a new pre-lubricated felt.

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

hi every one, thanks for your replies. well i spent a good day on it yesterday, stripped it down and cleaned everything fully and reassembled it. i set the points gap to .010 when it was on its maximum opening and done it via the allen screw. when the points go to their minimum though (off the lobe of the cam) the actual lobe of the point isnt touching the cam any longer until the high spot comes round again and the opens them to .010. is this right? i thought the lobe of the point it supposed to be in constant contact with the cam????
one thing i did notice whilst working on the carb is the slow speed mixture screws, 4 of them, where screwed right it, tight. when i undone them they become lose and if they were to be left like this they would just vibrate and rattle loose. now im assuming as these are mixture screws they do need to be undone a tad, for mixture. if so how much by?

so do we think its worth me changing the coil pack and amplifier assembley to? if im going to do this i need a good place for parts, who can point me in the right direction for this.

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

another thing ive just seen aswell. on the coil the part number is 582381 (sticker on the coil) and 511801 (moulded on the coil case). And on the amplifier its 389550. how do i know if these are the correct parts as i cant find any matching numbers to these on the diagrams on the net

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

The amplifier PN is good.
0383299 replaced by 0389551 replaced by 0397123

I wouldn't go replacing parts without troubleshooting. You could easily get 500 bucks worth of parts and still not fix the problem.

There are no adjustments, high or low speed, for those carbs.

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

The amplifier PN is good.
0383299 replaced by 0389551 replaced by 0397123

I wouldn't go replacing parts without troubleshooting. You could easily get 500 bucks worth of parts and still not fix the problem.

There are no adjustments, high or low speed, for those carbs.

ok, so i should just wind them back in tight as we cant do adjustment on them right???? i thought this may be the cause of it taking ages to start.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

The fiber portion of the points is NOT designed so that it is in constant contact with the cam. It comes into contact only when required to open.

(Point Setting Of Battery Capacitance Discharge)
( Ignition Models - 1968 thru 1972)
(Some have points - Some do not)
(Joe Reeves)

The points must be set to .010 but no wider than .010..... BUT in some instances due to a possible slight inaccurately machined crankshaft lobe or a slight offset of one set of points, a setting slightly less than .010 would be required as follows.

Whether the crankshaft has two or three lobes, when setting the points, check the setting of the points on each individual lobe by rotating the crankshaft by hand.

You may find that setting one set of points to .010 on one lobe, then turning the crankshaft to the next lobe, the gap measures .011 or .012 (too wide). This is where you would need to close that gap down to the required .010. A gap too wide can result in a ignition miss when throttle is applied.

Bottom line, pertaining to the point setting at the various lobe locations____ .010, .010, .009, is okay____ .010, .010, .011 is not!

(Battery Capacitance Dischage Powerpack Test)
Various OMC Engines - 1968 to 1972)
(J. Reeves)

Purchase a small 12v bulb at your local automotive parts store (the 12v bulb is to look like a flashlight bulb, not a headlight bulb). Solder two wires to that bulb, one to the side of the bulb (ground), and the other to the positive point. You might use a bulb of a somewhat lower voltage to obtain a brighter glow... just a suggestion.

Remove the spark plugs. With the key in the on position, make sure that you have 12v going to the pack at the terminal block (purple wire). Now, connect the ground wire from the bulb to any powerhead ground. Connect the wire from the positive point of that bulb to the powerpack wire that is connected to the coil wire on the terminal board (blue wire).

Crank the engine and observe that bulb closely (CLOSELY!). If that bulb glows even the slightest bit, the powerpack is okay. It may be a very dim glow... just so it glows! If it doesn't glow, the pack has failed.

Keep in mind, that type powerpack (Battery Capacitance Discharge) demands a top notch battery of at least 70 amp hours. Any less will, in time, cause powerpack failure.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

If you have 4 brass adjustable needles its a 1971 model or someone installed 69-71 model carbs. If so it has a plastic retainer that holds needle in set position

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

Should you have carburetors with adjustable slow speed needle valves.........

(Dual Carb V/4 With 4 (2 each carb) Slow Speed Adjustable N/Valves)
(J. Reeves)

The adjustment procedure of the carburetor slow speed needle valves follows. NOTE... if the needle valves turn too freely, replace the nylon bearing retainer (the nylon item at the front of the carb that the needle valve goes through first) with the newer type RED retainer #315232. If your engine has that weird linkage that connects all four of those needle valves, the newer RED retainers will enable you to discard that linkage. The RED retainers make it impossible for the needle valves to vibrate out of adjustment.

(Carburetor Adjustment - 2 Slow Speed Adjustable Needle Valves, each carburetor)

Initial setting is: All (4) Slow speed valves = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Facing the carburetors, start with the top left needle valve, then the top right valve, then the bottom let valve, then the bottom right valve. It may be necessary to redo these steps to get the adjustments ideally set

Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.

Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

Do not attempt to gradually adjust all four of the valves at the same time. Do one at a time until you hit the above response (die out or spit back), then go on to the next valve.

When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

ok, so i should just wind them back in tight as we cant do adjustment on them right???? i thought this may be the cause of it taking ages to start.

What is the model number of the motor?
The (US) 1972 85 hp is 85293....

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

the model number (well the little round disc on top of the power head) say's 85.E.S.L.72R B 02164. Is this the correct information or will their be another plaque somewhere?

the slow speed adjustment screws look like plugs with the slot head in them for a flat blade driver, they defiantly do not look like needles. if you put one one a table, it would stand about 5-mm high. so these 'plugs' are supposed to have red locking bands on them, to stop them from vibrating out? that makes sense really...

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

Heres a few pics if it helps

 

[F_R]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

They are NOT slow speed adjustment screws, they are plugs. That motor has fixed jets (8 of them) for both high speed and idle speed. Those plug/screws should have plastic washers under the heads, and should be screwed in snugly. Backing them out admits air, which is not good.

Your ignition amplifier is working or it wouldn't run at all. That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have an intermittant fault. But I sure wouldn't run out and buy an new one based on that slim chance.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

Sorry, I posted the Evinrude number. Your number is correct for a 1972 Johnson 85 hp :redface:

 

[Samthomas33]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

right. ive just tried the bulb test, one to the blue wire, one to the ground. i cranked it over and got nothing, not even a blink from the bulb. so i put my multi-meter across the blue and ground and still got nothing whilst cranking . i take it this means its the amplifier thats dead! oh and it does have 12v going to it as i checked between the purple and ground. also if i have the ignition on whilst its not running, you can here the amplifier ticking...???
it is strange because as i cranked it i had a plug out to see if it was sparking and as i turned the key it done nothing until i let go of the key then gives a really good spark, it does this intermittently but when it does, its a good strong one. what on earth could it be! what other tests can i do?

oh one other thing, when we did use it last time i had my brothers hard core battery on it, not sure on the spec of it but its a good one. as we drove it began to give up like it was braking down, i wonder if it was to much for it so it just burnt it out? he's running the same battery on his 1950 vw van and that seams ok with it.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 85hp V4 72 not running, please help! bet no one can sort it!

One statement you made ("it is strange because as i cranked it i had a plug out to see if it was sparking and as i turned the key it done nothing until i let go of the key then gives a really good spark") begs for my following reply.

(Voltage Drop To Battery Capacitance Discharge)
( Pulsepack When Electric Starter Is Engaged)
(J. Reeves)

On the older Battery Capacitance Discharge ignition systems (1968-1972), the electric starter reaches a point, even with a top notch battery, whereas the starter will draw excess voltage/current/whatever which results in a voltage drop to the pulsepack. The cure is to purchase a diode which is capable of handling 12 volts and installing it between the starter terminal of the starter solenoid (NOT the battery cable terminal) and the wiring terminal that supplies voltage to the pulsepack.

The diode must be installed so that the current flows from the starter terminal of the solenoid to the pulsepack... NOT vice versa. When that diode is installed in this manner, when the key is turned to the start position, the voltage that is applied to the starter is also applied directly to the pulsepack via the diode effectively eliminating the voltage drop and energizing the pulsepack with the required voltage needed for its proper operation.