12v Earthing onto Engine, Please Help.

[Riley C]

Hi Boaters,

So lately i have been harassing all you guys about tacho issues, my blown power pack on my 87 140 Looper (from Hell).

Well today I have found the culprit but don't know how to solve or fix why it's happening.

I'm getting 12v earthing via accessories. The charge goes away when off.

See photo attached.
The following reading are:

1.12v via black/tan stripe. (Manual says from Control) Wire terminates to the ground terminal.
2. 12 Via trim send black wire from gauge? Wire terminates to the ground terminal.
3. The ground was terminated to the blue wire from motor trim button, and wasn't even bolted to engine.
4. Three red wires terminate to the positive of the relay top screw. Manual only shows two going to it.

There all stripped wires hanging out of the conduits. Total butchers job who last work on it.

I would really like any ones help on this as it has blown my digital gauges and a power pack.

Where do I start from? All the termination look good on the gauges, the analogue gauges are working.

I'm trying to sell this thing but it's curse keeps pulling me back in.

Can any one provide a detailed diagram of the 87 Loopers? I only have the 88 manual which is different i believe.

Any advice would be a big help guys.

Thanks.
Riley

 

[fireman57]

On my pontoon I had a hot wire that had rubbed through on one of the braces. Gave me fits until I found it. Trace all of your hots and look for one with burned/worn through insulation.

 

[Riley C]

On my pontoon I had a hot wire that had rubbed through on one of the braces. Gave me fits until I found it. Trace all of your hots and look for one with burned/worn through insulation.

Thanks Fireman,

yeah i I got some searching to do. Maybe start with all the gauges. It’s an accessory charge at least narrows finding ignition wires I assume.

i really hope it’s not in the control box, do the key switch do anything like this?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Id actually start in the control box to be honest. All sorts of things happen out of sight in there and yes keyswitches can cause +ve shorts onto the kill wire, i had one do it but thankfully it didnt blow the powerpack

 

[Riley C]

Id actually start in the control box to be honest. All sorts of things happen out of sight in there and yes keyswitches can cause +ve shorts onto the kill wire, i had one do it but thankfully it didnt blow the powerpack

Hi BOS,

i found two shorts, both off accessories.

One one on the gauge. This one was activating the ground back to the relay box. God

The other was the key switch barrel bridging to ground back to the starter ( this was the one making the buzzing sound when trying to start.

the only thing I could work out in the relay box was when I had to join the control box and motor trim switches via accessories (red white?) one of them would also short when trying to start engine. It turns when I put the control box to the active terminal at relay, the rear and accessories is only together at v3 terminal.

the last guy really made a mess of the harness.

Does any one have a 85-87 diagram?

Thanks
Riley

 

[fireman57]

Are you looking for a control box schematic?

 

[fireman57]

At the bottom of this page shows the routing for your tilt/trim wire if that is what you are looking for.

https://www.crowleymarine.com/support/tech_articles/prewired-surface-mount-remote-control.html

 

[Riley C]

Thanks fire man,

I don’t get it, the live red white wire which joins to t3 for the trim tilt switches is making the solonoid short/buzz and trim. This stops the starter from turning. Its hell intermittent also. The fault rechecks if turn master kill at battery.

It’s grounding or some where not in the relay box. When these wires are not screwed to to terminal, it starts.

I know now it’s all hooked up per manual diagram. But it’s giving me the shits.

Somehow the live wire feeding the trim switches (not trim power itself) maybe shorting to the ground wire but, there’s no load going to engine.

have you guys had any issues like this?

 

[Riley C]

I have narrowed this shorting fault to the trim and tilt. The engine has no issue cranking when the switch is disconnected from the 12v line at terminal 3. I have no idea how it’s happening, a relay perhaps? But one is brand new. I’m also not using tilt when try to start.

I get switch through each relay at the motor plug fine at 12v.

this guy has done a number on me honestly bloody hell.

How do i fault find this issue.

As as stated the issue doesn’t happen when trim switching disconnected?

Any ideas?

 

[Riley C]

Here are two terminals (21 on diagram) both have constant 12v. One is fused the other not, I don’t know which one goes to the relay + terminal and the other for the TT switches.

If if I put one on the terminal it will bypass the fuse and I can start engine.

I have good resistance on the ground now with now fault of earthing.

i don’t have a red purple wire in the relay box. It’s more red white stripe.....

 

[Riley C]

I believe I have found it!

The forward control switch and the engine switch up and down were crossed over via foot trim switches. I believe this may have been cancelling the relays out. But don’t know how it would affect the starter solenoid.

Are the T&T switches and starter solenoid linked?

Really glad I have fixed the earthing issue though. 12v from two faults going to engine can never be good.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Sounds like some determined effort you've done there. I didnt think T and T switches and starter solenoid were linked.Im surprised a fuse hasnt blown somewhere if it was shorting to your engine block, thats a lot of heat in the wires too

 

[Riley C]

Sounds like some determined effort you've done there. I didnt think T and T switches and starter solenoid were linked.Im surprised a fuse hasnt blown somewhere if it was shorting to your engine block, thats a lot of heat in the wires too

It took a few days of research and fault finding. I was so surprised three faults in total Boss. Two sending 12v to the block and this switching on T&T. Far out I have now almost rebuilt this engine both electrical and mechanical.

You should see my spare parts and tools box, that I keep on the water. It’s got spare plugs, leads coil and power pack. Just in case the Johnny Rude ghost strikes.

 

[Bosunsmate]

If it was sending voltage to the block i suppose that would cause a loss in voltage differential affecting starter/solenoid.
yes i dont think half the people who come on my boat would if they knew how many things could go belly up. You need Macgyver out there often
I now pack a little kicker motor up front, helps keep the bow down too

 

[Riley C]

Yeah I can only assume when there are shorts such as two from accessory going direct to the relay box. This was what drained the battery dead and killed the power pack.

With the T&T crossed over up and down switching is a little more hard to understand why it would short the solenoid from starting. Maybe because T&T was have 12v crossed over in polarity and solenoid draws from the same ground wire as the T&T?


You just never know. I had no idea so much could go wrong with a motor that had been stored for 8 yrs. The guy previously never used it. However the first owner before him must have extensively raced it even with 215 hours on it.

You cant take to many chances now.

 

[fireman57]

If you are into boating much you will end up with a lot of spare parts that aren't really spares when you need them. Glad you figured it out. With getting it right yourself comes great satisfaction. It would be hard for even the best on here to figure out two or more problems without actually seeing and being with the engine.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Solenoid draws from ground straight onto block so doubtful its that, great its fixed.
Just like buying a car, first couple of trips after you get home you find the problems you didnt know, after fixing that they almost go forever

 

[Riley C]

Solenoid draws from ground straight onto block so doubtful its that, great its fixed.
Just like buying a car, first couple of trips after you get home you find the problems you didnt know, after fixing that they almost go forever

BOS my wife thinks I love working on the boat more than being with the family lol. I have worked on this thing so much, learnt a lot though.

Could it be through the polarity of the switches and relay. So if bridged it stops solenoid from positive side?

It hasn’t done it since, I have cranked engine multiple times and even trimmed etc pulled fuse to try bring it on lol. I just hope it is fixed. Otherwise next trip will be a lot of swearing like a mad man.

Thanks for messaging back too! It’s great bouncing thoughts on here.

 

[Riley C]

If you are into boating much you will end up with a lot of spare parts that aren't really spares when you need them. Glad you figured it out. With getting it right yourself comes great satisfaction. It would be hard for even the best on here to figure out two or more problems without actually seeing and being with the engine.

Thanks for the encouragement Fireman, I come here at least to see if heading right direction. I would be lost otherwise.

 

[Bosunsmate]

BOS my wife thinks I love working on the boat more than being with the family lol. I have worked on this thing so much, learnt a lot though.

Could it be through the polarity of the switches and relay. So if bridged it stops solenoid from positive side?

Tell her you do it for the family!
Ive no idea your exact set up, if you did a circuit diagram it could help portray it
Id of thought starter solenoid is totally separate and itd be able to draw its current easily even if having to share with T and T