Hydroelectric Solenoids

Paulywog0667

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Gear Oil By The Solenoids?

I filled my gear assembly with gear oil. Should my solenoids have gear oil by them now? It's my first outboard. I don't see anything on the part chart that would stop anything getting around the oil pump. It's a 1972 hydro-electric. I wouldn't second guess oil by a manual shift, but double checking.
 

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Paulywog0667

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Yes they will have oil around them at times. Why ???

New outboard pricing has me learning on a free motor.
Two carb kits and new lower gears made me finally splurge on a battery and water hose muffs. Checking the solenoid area created a double check no reason to scrap the motor. I've been able to invest minimal, but it's a 1972 that has me concerned a new 2018 Evinrude or Mercury 30-50hp. monthly payment wouldn't be the same.
 

racerone

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Solenoids operate in oil.----Oil pump will be flooded with oil too.
 

oldboat1

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think I would lose the muffs, though. Get a large trash barrel.
 

Paulywog0667

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I finally got the gear assembly attached after new gears and welded the housing. Got the solenoid wires pulled back up, but...

The ignition wire harness half doesn't have the purple and green solenoid wires the engine harness has. Is there a special voltage or straight 12v from the battery could put the motor in neutral? Last year without the gear assembly the motor started right up, but now with default forward, it's cranking, but not turning over. Not certain if the voltage can be from the battery or has to be from the ignition 12v.
 

Paulywog0667

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I've finally rebuilt my outboard enough to put the gear assembly back on and fill with Type C. Last year with the gear assembly off, the motor turned over easily, but now cranks with compression and not turning over. I figured it might be similar to cranking a lawnmower with the wheel drive engaged with defaulting forward, but the Type-27 battery doesn't seem to be having trouble cranking. I applied 12v from the battery to the green solenoid to see if neutral would help and the wire got hot. Figured better to ask.

Normally I would debate fuel, but the solenoid wire got hot. My pocketbook already cried at the forward, reverse, pinion and clutch dog. I would really like my next boat purchase to be a top for shade instead of guessing another carb kit or plugs.

What would make reverse a big deal to that green wire? To top it off, the only water stream I saw was down by the gear assembly. I'm debating if the hose falling off the water tube last year while the lower was off made the thermostat say no to water now. A thermostat still doesn't make me comprehend the solenoid wire hot.

Seems like I cranked it hot until it got mad back and carbs were already rebuilt. It cranks and compression though.
 

F_R

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Two things cause wire to get hot.

High amperage. That would be caused by a short to ground

Too skinny / thin wire. Not so, if you are using the original wires.
 

Paulywog0667

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Two things cause wire to get hot.

High amperage. That would be caused by a short to ground

Too skinny / thin wire. Not so, if you are using the original wires.

I'm using a 14 gauge wire back to maybe 16 or 18 dropping to the solenoid. I'm not that familiar with the solenoids to understand where the short to ground could be. They look like they want to give a rod to the oil pump 12v worth of one solenoid or two. I look at it and looks like amperage would push the clutch dog piston more. In theory of not burning to grounding out. Would be somewhere from the original wire down to the solenoid though. The 14 gauge to the battery was tested on the lights. If the battery 12v can be used temporarily, I'd be safe debating solenoid instead of oil pump? Would be a crack in the solenoid or a break in the wire? Would 12v to the other solenoid process of elimination anything?
 

F_R

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The solenoid itself might have an internal short. But more likely, the wire going to it may be shorted (touching bare metal somewhere)

All the solenoids do is close a couple of oil flow control valves when activated. Oil pressure when the valve is closed is what does the shifting. Closing one valve (green) makes it go into neutral. Closing both valves at the same time makes it go into reverse.
 

Paulywog0667

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I'll try voltage to the other solenoid tomorrow. The neutral solenoid wire is the one I had some confidence in, but that area was originally more like grease compared to Type-C gear oil when I first opened the gear assembly. I cleaned up the solenoids, but oil in the solenoid area still makes me debate a little about 12v not being conductive to a ground. It's a couple metal rods that run through a couple solenoids. If any liquid is in the area, seems bad news. I had threaded rods connected to the pump to inspect, but didn't pull it with not knowing if it was bad.

I might have to pull the pump and see what would pull out besides two rods on the solenoid side. No voltage forward makes it seem a little more like, valves opening at voltage or pump speed at voltage to push the clutch dog piston. People have been like you'd see oil at the solenoids, but looking at the solenoids makes it seem like half advice to if an O-ring was bad.
 

Joe Reeves

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NOTE: Cranking & Turning Over means the same thing. It's "Cranking" and "Firing/Starting'.

That hydro electric unit demands "Premium Blend" gearcase oil, also known as "Type C". DO NOT use "HiVis 90w!"

********************
(Hydro Electric Shift System Explained)
(J. Reeves)

NOTE 1 -The ohm reading of the individual shift solenoids should be between 5 to 6 ohms. The ohm meter should be set to low ohms. The shift wires leading to the solenoids must be disconnected when being tested.

NOTE 2 - The solenoid plunger measurement must be made with the solenoid placed within the lower unit. The measurement must be approximately 1/64" beneath the top surface of the solenoid... NOT above the solenoid surface nor any lower than 1/64" of the solenoid surface. This factory measurement is critical and will not ever change UNLESS someone has tinkered with it.

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

Note: The engine must be running OR have the driveshaft turning by some other means in order for the engine to shift.

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).

With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.
********************
 

Paulywog0667

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
139
NOTE: Cranking & Turning Over means the same thing. It's "Cranking" and "Firing/Starting'.

That hydro electric unit demands "Premium Blend" gearcase oil, also known as "Type C". DO NOT use "HiVis 90w!"

********************
(Hydro Electric Shift System Explained)
(J. Reeves)

NOTE 1 -The ohm reading of the individual shift solenoids should be between 5 to 6 ohms. The ohm meter should be set to low ohms. The shift wires leading to the solenoids must be disconnected when being tested.

NOTE 2 - The solenoid plunger measurement must be made with the solenoid placed within the lower unit. The measurement must be approximately 1/64" beneath the top surface of the solenoid... NOT above the solenoid surface nor any lower than 1/64" of the solenoid surface. This factory measurement is critical and will not ever change UNLESS someone has tinkered with it.

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

Note: The engine must be running OR have the driveshaft turning by some other means in order for the engine to shift.

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).

With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.
********************

I put Sierra Type-C in. Didn't seem like voltage from the battery would hurt since everything is grounded. That still makes me guess why the wire got hot though. A 5-6 ohms solenoid tells me that the solenoid is closed. If I got 5+ on a traffic loop, a break in the line. The voltage making the wire hot tells me voltage is getting to ground, but not where. I'm taking some time today to double check spark at the plugs anyways. I'm at a guess whether the pump sitting dry for awhile would freeze it enough to draw high amperage. Maybe sitting in the Type-C overnight changed something. Nothing else seems hot, but where I hold the wires to apply voltage.
 

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
Messages
13,262
Don't overthink the problem... The oil pump has nothing to do with the voltage even if it was frozen solid.
 

Paulywog0667

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Messages
139
I put voltage to the purple wire and no heat, but saw the brief spark at connection. The green wire wants to weld if I touch voltage to it. I must have missed something. A solenoid would be the easy fix, but is there a way to tell if it's not the leg of the oil pump?
 

Paulywog0667

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Messages
139
I'm going to drop the gear assembly. If I put voltage to the solenoid outside of the gear assembly, is it basically relaying 12v or am I looking for a step down voltage? I'm hoping a wire short, that's one item I wouldn't actually have to spend more money on.
 

GA_Boater

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Since you have two threads about the solenoids and you are posting in both, you now have one thread.
 
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