Water in oil after seal replacement Force 50

[BaylinerRyan]

Hello everyone. I am hoping someone might be able to provide me a little advice. My father passed away and I inherited one of his old boats. Its a 14 foot 1987 Bayliner with the original Force 50. It has sat in a garage for the last 7 years and I figured I would see if I could get it running. I checked the 7 year old gas in it and was amazed that it still smelled decent. I was curious so I threw on a set of ears and a battery from my Jeep and the thing started after about 5 seconds of cranking. Needless to say I was amazed and figured the motor was in good shape. The exterior is very clean with absolutely minimal corrosion. It sounds strong and feels like it has plenty of compression.

Fast forward a few days and I notice a puddle of oil under the engine. Upon further inspection I could see that it had run out of the water intake. Some research on the forum led me to believe that the gearbox needed a seal kit. I ordered one and started to drop the lower unit. Well that was a fun experience. The long stud was pretty corroded in the housing and did not want to let go. A liberal application of PB Blaster and a torch eventually won. I was able to get all the old seals out and replaced with the new ones. Bolted everything together making sure o-ring between the gearbox and lower unit was in its channel. Everything seemed good.

I started the motor and ran it for a good 5-10 minutes. Everything sounded good and I did not see any evidence of oil or water mixing. I shut it down and let everything drain and after a half hour there was no sign of oil. I decided to put some Seafoam in the tank and run the motor for a while. I let it run for about 15 minutes and when I shut it down there was a grey milkshake that was pouring from the little drain hole behind one of the bolts that connects the lower unit to the main engine.

Some more info. I don't have a service manual so I was just using the knowledge I have gained from years of working on cars and Jeeps. When I initially saw the oil it was plain gear oil, not mixed with water and had come out the water intake. Now I have water and oil clearly mixed and running out the drain hole at the top of the lower unit. One thing I found troubling was that I am unable to remove the driveshaft. It appears that it has worn very badly on the bushing. I replaced the seal but the surface on the driveshaft is fairly worn in that spot too. Could that be the issue? I also did not use any type of sealer anywhere. Was that a mistake?

Thank you for any help you can provide and I apologize for the wall of text.

 

[Nordin]

Easiest way to find the leakage is to pressure test the LU.
You can build a simple test tool from a regular cycle pump and put a pressure gauge at a T-coupling.
The gauge has to handle low pressure values, about 5-15 PSI.
Pull the LU from the midleg .
Set the pressure to 10 PSI and then spray soap water around the LU and look for bubbles.
Turn the drive shaft, the propeller shaft and also push/pull the shift rod up and down.
If no bubbles you can increase the pressure to 15 PSI and check.
Do not set the pressure higher then 15 PSI, you can damage the seals.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Sounds like your replacement seal/ seals aren't working?
The first thing you do when resurrecting a motor that's set.
Compression and spark test.
That OK? then change the impeller and change the oil in the lower unit.
While the oils gone, do a pressure test.

These 50's can run on one cyl. and actually run fair.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

A little update. I haven't had a chance to do a compression test yet but am confident the engine is fine in that regard. I will test it this weekend just so I know the numbers. I verified I had strong spark on both cylinders. I also connected a tach and it idles smooth at 900 rpm. I found a video that explained how to do a pressure test and rig up an apparatus using part of the gear lube pump I already had. I went to drain the oil and removed the top vent plug expecting to have a bunch of extra fluid come poring out and nothing happened. I placed a clean bowl under the drain and removed the plug and the oil is perfect, no water whatsoever.

Now I am wondering if I actually have a failed seal. Again, there was zero water in the oil. I am wondering if my fuel mix is just that off. I still have a couple gallons of the 7 year old fuel in there. I topped it off with a few gallons of new gas and oil but then added about 3/4 of a bottle of Seafoam. I think it may just be too much oil and it was mixing with the exhaust water and collected in the leg. I am going to empty the tank and refill it with fresh gas and oil and run it again for a bit and see what happens. I'm still thinking of dropping the lower unit and doing a pressure test to be sure but I wonder...

 

[Nordin]

If no sign of water in the gear oil then the milky oil you saw maybe is from your fuel/oil/seafoam exhaust mix.
But do a pressure test of the LU, it would not hurt.

 

[jerryjerry05]

The oil you see might be the unburned gas/oil draining from the carb?
Check the diaphragm in the fuel pump for holes.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

Thanks for the good ideas everyone. I drained the tank this morning and filled with fresh gas and oil mixed at 50:1. I did not add Seafoam. Engine started right up, ran for about 5 minutes. When I shut it down water started draining from the leg, it was nice and clean. When it got to the last little bit I started to see the grey mixture again, not near as bad as before. I have a rebuild kit for the carb on the way. I am going to pull it and clean it up. I will also double check the diaphragm in the pump. Attached is a picture of the mixture and where it is draining from.

 

[Nordin]

That is unburn fuel from engine.
Not gear oil.
Looks like normal from a two stroker.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

I made some more time today to work on the outboard. I checked the fuel filter and diaphragm and they were both fine. Filter is spotless and the diaphragm has no holes and actually looks fairly new. I pulled the plugs and found they looked quite different. The top plug is on the right and the bottom plug is on the left. There is what appears to be carbon flakes on both plugs but the bottom is obviously worse with a lot of deposits on it. I cleaned the plugs up with some carb cleaner and they actually looked pretty good. I can tell that the top coil and wire is newer than the bottom.

I did a compression test and got 88-89 psi on both cylinders. I'm not positive what they should be but from the numbers I have seen thrown around they are definitely on the low side. I guess one plus is they are even. I am just using a Harbor Freight compression tester but it was used several months ago during a Jeep engine rebuild and the numbers it was showing me at the time seemed accurate.

I purchased a can of the spray Seafoam and ran that through the engine today. I put about half a can in then let it sit for 10 minutes. Ran it for another 10 minutes to clean it out then went through the second half of the can and let it sit again. I noticed after the 2nd treatment that there was much less oil/water mixture coming from the drain hole, but it was still there. I still need to pull the plugs and see what they look like after the Seafoam treatment. There was also quite the oil slick in my driveway, maybe just the Seafoam?

I do notice what I feel is a bit of a stumble, although this is my first 2-stroke. I have attached a few pictures and link to a couple videos. Thanks again everyone for your input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n23FyHcXZGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9p2xGpC0E

 

[jerryjerry05]

The idle might be too low.
On the hose 1150-1200
In the water in gear 800

The miss: try adjusting the air/fuel mix screw. In the water in gear.
Start at 1 1/2 turn out from lightly seated.
Turn the screw 1/8th turn in wait 10 seconds.
Then repeat until the motor bucks, kicks, stalls.
Then turn the screw out 1/2 turn.

IF??? it still misses then it possibly sucking air somewhere????
If? you have experienced any backfiring?
Then you could have blown the gaskets on the 2 port covers.
Then do the starting fluid test.
Start the motor and spray the fluid around the intake side, base of the carb,
around the port covers anywhere but in the throat of the carb.
If the spray makes ANY difference then the motors sucking air and needs a gasket.

The comp should be 145-155.
The HF stuff is ok for the test and showing the 2 cyl. are close.
They need to be close for the motor to run right.
But get another gauge and see what the reading really is???

Your running seafoam does that to the plugs, it removes carbon and
did just that from the looks.
Get new plugs and clean gas, no seafoam.
Seafoam isn't the thing to use when working on anything.
Like adding soap to the gas.
Mercury's Power Tune or OMC's Engine Tuner is what to use if
you want to remove carbon and free the stuck rings.

One more thing: the more you run in the drive or adjust anything,
the worse the oil slick is gonna be.
The start and stop causes oil build up inside the crank case,
the recirc system doesn't always return the unburned fuel to be
burned.
It needs to be run and get hot and burn the residue from the motor.

Is the thermostat still in the motor? If not, the motor's not getting up
to temp and the motor running too cool will contribute to the smoke, oil.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

Some discoveries. I pulled the carb and found 2 things. The idle screw was only out half a turn from lightly seated and the float seems way out of wack. The float is set so it is practically against the fuel pickup and maybe travels 1mm before closing the valve. Does anyone know the proper spec for the float height? I have searched but keep coming up with conflicting information.

I have not had any issues with backfires and I already sprayed around the engine with carb cleaner and detected no change in idle speed. I am going to assume carb cleaner will work for that purpose on a 2 stroke. I have always used it to find carb/manifold leaks on cars. I will drain the tank a put fresh gas and good oil in with new plugs.

I really feel like I need to dial in the float though. I'll see if I can get some pics of the float.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

Another little update. I bent the tab on the float where the needle connects and got some extra travel. I have attached a short clip of it pre and post adjustment. You can see in the first clip that the float barely moves and the needle almost doesn't leave the seat. After that I noticed that the idle was a bit smoother but still had a bit of a miss. Higher RPM were much improved though. Before it would have a big miss every few seconds and that is now eliminated.

Now for the bad. I went back over with some carb cleaner and sprayed around the 2 covers under the fuel pump because I missed those the first time. As soon as I gave a shot of spray around the cover under the fuel pump the engine died. I'm pretty sure that means I have a bad gasket. Now the questions is which one? Is it just going to be the transfer cover gasket? From what I can see on the parts diagrams, both the fuel pump cover and the transfer port cover use the same gasket. There are also several gaskets involved with the fuel pump. Could any of those cause the symptoms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9CvpRtjeGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WZVDDYljoY

 

[Nordin]

I would suggest you to change both transfer port cover gaskets and check the fuel pump diaphragm.
There is a fuel pump kit which contains pump gaskets and diaphragm.
These are cheap stuff and regular maintenance.

 

[jerryjerry05]

The old starter fluid/ carb cleaner (both work) did the trick
Change the gaskets and get the good ones with the red/rubber seal on them.
Then use a bit of sealer that dries.
Wait for them to dry or the back pressures just gonna blow the seal again
Excessive salt water use makes them hard to seal, take your time.

IF?? you go to the trouble of taking the fuel pump apart???
Change the diaphragm no matter what it looks like.

Bought a used boat with twin 88 85's and both had double diaphragms.
The PO fished WAY out and didn't want them to fail.

 

[BaylinerRyan]

Just added the fuel pump gaskets and diaphragm, 2 port cover gaskets as well as the ones for the carb adapter and deflector plates to my cart. I figure if I am replacing gaskets I might as well do them all. Anything I should look out for or need to be aware of?

I did run it for about 15 minutes yesterday and when I shut it down there was hardly any of that sludge that drained out. It seems I might be making progress.