Who decided that fighting is bad?

[HVAC Cruiser]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Jones has a valid point, I think what he is trying to say is there is a limit. Granted, I understand that there are those out there that know whats better for everyone, and those people should be allowed to control every aspect of our lives ( I am being facetious, but all with good intentions) An example of being ridiculous would be I had to go to my sons school a few weeks back because he drew a picture of an FBI agent, badge and all SAID FBI with his gun drawn storming a building that said BAD GUY HIDEOUT across the top, I was told that anything depicting guns was not tolerated and he would be suspended if it happened again. Give me a break, he has a 98 average, gets anywhere from 95-105 on tests. The Principal took me on the side at the end of the meeting and said the teacher was off her rocker my son is a lovable little 7yo boy with not an angry bone in his body, ( he visits her all the time just to say hi, he's a friendly kid) but she had to call us in to avoid conflict with the teacher.

 

[Stachi]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Defending yourself doesn't mean fighting. Going to the authorities isn't the same as hiding under someone's skirt. My kid has been raised with pacifist values. He has very high self esteem and he can defend himself in any situation that doesn't require physical violence. He knows how to handle a bully, and he runs into plenty of them. He's no wimp. He just doesn't fight. And he has friends who do fight, and who are doing poorly in school, getting suspended, and pretty much ensuring that they will have problems in life as adults.

Take this forum as an example of how bullying can be dealt with. Three years ago there was rampant bullying. I don't know if you were here then, but it wasn't pretty. Fighting back did no good--it just made it worse. If you were here, you probably remember who the bullies were. I'm handy with words, and managed to inflict my share of wounds. Got some PMs and such that made it very evident that they knew they had lost a fight. And yet they kept going. They didn't stop until the site administrators set up a policy that said that the kind of behavior they were engaging in was not allowed. At that point, they either changed their ways, got expelled, or left for "greener pastures." They went to places where they're allowed to fight because that's what they like to do. Bullies are like that.

This site is currently run a lot like the schools are. I like that.

Am I hiding under someone's skirt when I report an offensive post? I don't think so. Am I unable to defend myself? Nope. Do I have low self esteem? I don't think anyone here would say that about me Sometimes a forum is a lot like the real world.

I'm guessing that no one has ever just walked up to you and punched you in your face for no reason.....lucky you...... I was always small and skinny ... and got picked on...one day I decided to fight back...found out I had a wicked left hook...stopped most of the bullying once word got around. I got bullied once or twice after that time , they got their licks..I got mine .., and they left me alone from then on. They didn't want to fight, just hurt someone without any consequences.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

BTW, arguing is not the same thing as fighting.

Just keep in mind that neither are permitted here on iboats.

Main Entry: ar?gue
Pronunciation: \ˈ?r-(ˌ)gy?\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ar?gued; ar?gu?ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French arguer to reprove, argue & Latin arguere to demonstrate, prove; Anglo-French arguer, from Latin argutare to prate, frequentative of arguere; akin to Hittite arkuwai- to plead, respond
Date: 14th century

intransitive verb 1 : to give reasons for or against something : reason <argue for a new policy>
2 : to contend or disagree in words : dispute <argue about money>transitive verb 1 : to give evidence of : indicate <the facts argue his innocence>
2 : to consider the pros and cons of : discuss <argue an issue>
3 : to prove or try to prove by giving reasons : maintain <asking for a chance to argue his case>
4 : to persuade by giving reasons : induce <couldn't argue her out of going> synonyms see discuss

? ar?gu?er \-gyə-wər, -gy?-ər\ noun

This is unfortunately one of the biggest weaknesses of IBOATS. Too many mods seem to think that any kind of disagreement is bad. Nothing wrong with arguing. Without it, bad information gets posted, and no arguments against it are allowed.

Nothing wrong with people having different opinions and arguing about it. That's how you learn things. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong.

Unfortunately we're seeing the same mindset to "niceness" in schools, kids aren't allowed to argue or learn how to handle differences. The nanny is always there. Turns into a pressure cooker without a relief valve, sooner or later something blows up dramatically.

 

[Stachi]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

my post is from personal experience...

 

[wgrubbs]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Some of my best buds were from fighting, mostly cause you just didnt like each other, fighting young is good, fighting past you mid teens, walk away if you can

 

[jwp]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I've been hurt worse by words than by fists. Bruises leave but emotional
scares can be with you for a lifetime. Just my opinion and you know what
they say about that

 

[mommicked]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I myself was bullied in school.My dad (ex marine) told me to ball my fist as hard as i could and punch them right in the nose.I used his advice 4 times, only once was i beat up after throwing the punch.and NONE of the bullies ever bothered me again.some actually wanted to be friends afterward!I think it may be the only way to earn the respect of some bullies!and they usually keep on bullying as long as they think they can get away w it.

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

My opinion on the "fighting is bad" thing:

When I was growing up, there were many bullies. Yes, if a victim stood up to the bully, the bully would usually move on to another. It's a fact of life. For me, I'd rather my boys and girl to learn how to handle themselves and cause the bully to move on.
I also hope to train my children to be people of character, who when they see the bully "move on" to another weaker person, they are willing to explain to the bully that moving on to someone else is still not o.k. I also hope that like myself, my children will be blessed with friends who are the kind of people that did not stand by and let weaker people be abused.
Teachers, law enforcement, courts, etc. are not going to be able to solve bullying problems.
The only solution is for good people/kids to stand up for what is right and not look the other way.

Some folks here seem to think that it's possible to stop a bully by saying the right thing to them------that has not been my experience.

Has anyone seen the Andy Griffith episode where Opie gets bullied and Barney runs around trying to stop the bully??? That's one of my favorite episodes, and one that I believe to be very accurate as far as how real life goes.
From my experience, Andy was right-------"It didn't even hurt!"
JMO,
JBJ

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Teachers, law enforcement, courts, etc. are not going to be able to solve bullying problems.
The only solution is for good people/kids to stand up for what is right and not look the other way.

Some folks here seem to think that it's possible to stop a bully by saying the right thing to them------that has not been my experience.

By the same token, kids standing up for themselves is not going to be able to solve bullying problems either, and stands a chance of making that kid himself a bully when he realizes that he can get his way by hitting someone.

I agree that saying the right thing doesn't always work. However, my experience has been that fighting back doesn't stop the bullying. It just moves it to a place where no one is looking.

As I have said over and over, teaching your kids to defend themselves is a good thing. Still, that doesn't mean that anti-bullying policies aren't a good idea. We need both, and some better parenting thrown into the mix as well.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Unfortunately it is human nature that some stronger kids are going to bully some weaker ones. There is no way you can have a cop, teacher, parent, etc, watching your kids ALL the time to wipe their little bottoms for them or defend them from bullies.

When your kid comes to the authorities to whine about being bullied it is their word against the bullies. And you'll find that about half the time that it is the kid that is supposedly being "bullied" trying to get the other kid in trouble. It becomes a case of "he said, she said", nothing the authorities can do about it, no way to know who is telling the truth.

I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't teach them to know how and when to defend themselves, both physically and by going to authorities. I would bet that the parents of the poor kids who commit suicide because they are being bullied wish that they had taught the kids how to handle it when they were younger.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Unfortunately it is human nature that some stronger kids are going to bully some weaker ones. There is no way you can have a cop, teacher, parent, etc, watching your kids ALL the time to wipe their little bottoms for them or defend them from bullies.

When your kid comes to the authorities to whine about being bullied it is their word against the bullies. And you'll find that about half the time that it is the kid that is supposedly being "bullied" trying to get the other kid in trouble. It becomes a case of "he said, she said", nothing the authorities can do about it, no way to know who is telling the truth.

I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't teach them to know how and when to defend themselves, both physically and by going to authorities. I would bet that the parents of the poor kids who commit suicide because they are being bullied wish that they had taught the kids how to handle it when they were younger.

Sometimes it's hard to deal with rules. For example, I don't know whether to respond to your point, or to report you to the authorities for taking on a "baiting" tone. Seems to me that making statements like "wipe their little bottoms" and "whine about being bullied" is intended to pick a fight rather than keep a discussion going. I'll let the mods sort that one out, but I might as well put in a response with the full understanding that it might get pulled for being "argumentative."

The girl who committed suicide had no opportunity to "fight back." The attacks weren't physical. More and more, this is the case. If we teach kids to fight back physically and they respond to a non-physical threat, they're the ones who will get into trouble. In cases like that of Phoebe Prince it seems that the authorities are the only ones with the power to stop the cycle. Would she have been "whining" if she went to them for help? Would she have been asking them to "wipe her little bottom"? Quite frankly, that's the kind of language bullies use to keep kids from going to the authorities. It's meant the humiliate them, and keep them from going to their best line of defense which is to seek out someone who has some power to stop things.

One last thing, which I've brought up again and again and which seemingly isn't sinking in. While I agree that a kid needs to learn to defend him/herself, I don't think that means he/she needs to know how to win a physical fight. You write as though kids who can't physically defend themselves are defenseless and that's not the case at all. They use a different but equally effective means of defending themselves.

 

[bowman316]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

i think 45 auto was saying that you can't rely on a cop to protect you at all times. When you are in the getto, for instance, you might get robbed, and there will not be a cop there. You just have to know to not put your self in certain situations i guess. and not have to rely on outside help, when outside help will not be there most of the time.

If someone is facebook bullying someone, then I guess you would ignore the people doing it. maybe block them on facebook. or confront them in person. that is a tough one.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Sometimes it's hard to deal with rules. For example, I don't know whether to respond to your point, or to report you to the authorities for taking on a "baiting" tone.

No problem for me, do what you feel you have to do, I'm not going to let you bully me into not posting my thoughts. Seems like to me that you didn't get my point. Please point out in my post where I said anything about "fighting back" being only physical. There are times when different methods are appropriate. However, if kids only have one method available to them, be that physically or going to authorities, they are restricted in their choices of how to handle the situation.

First line of my third paragraph (which you also quoted):

I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't teach them to know how and when to defend themselves, both physically and by going to authorities.

My point is that the more options the kids have available to them that they are proficient at using the better their chances are of dealing with any situation. Fighting is both physical and mental. Phoebe Prince, the girl who committed suicide had many opportunities to "fight back", not necessarily physically, she just didn't know how to use them. The reports describe the bullying as taking place over a period of months, it was not a one-time incident. According to CNN yesterday, it had been going on for over 3 months!!

If she had more options to deal with the bullying available to her, she could have done something different. Possibly physically defending herself would have helped, I can't say for sure, I don't know all the facts. It would have been one more option for her. But I can say for sure that the end result of it couldn't have been any worse than what finally happened to her.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

neeedd to ignoreee this threaaadd....it is making me anggrrryy...wantin to beat somebody up!!!!!

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

No problem for me, do what you feel you have to do, I'm not going to let you bully me into not posting my thoughts.

That's not bullying. It's trying to abide by a set of rules that are in place for good reason, but that don't cover every possible situation. Post your thoughts all you want, but realize that there are many ways to make your point, some of them aggressive to the point of picking a fight and others geared toward furthering a conversation. I still think it's clear that you were picking a fight.

Seems like to me that you didn't get my point. Please point out in my post where I said anything about "fighting back" being only physical.

Sometimes it's not something that's done directly. Sometimes it's more subtle than that. I was bullied on the way home from school by a guy who would stand in the aisle next to my seat, physically blocking my way out of the bus so that I'd miss my stop. He didn't hit me and he pretended that he was involved in a conversation with someone else so that he'd have a "out" if the driver figured it out. Still, it was clear what he was doing. In your post it's the tone that makes it clear that you disapprove of going to the authorities.

My point is that the more options the kids have available to them that they are proficient at using the better their chances are of dealing with any situation. Fighting is both physical and mental.

Absolutely true. So the question remains--why did you make such disparaging comments about going to the authorities in the beginning of your post? Or do you think "whining" and "wiping their little bottoms" is a good thing?

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I think a lot of the fundamentals here are about true confidence rooted in some self belief in a situation. Which is something sadly lacking in most kids young people today given the way the average parent has inadvertantly defeated their sense of independence and self determination...an their true personal confidence along with it..
My quick two bits.
BP

 

[jonesg]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

In that case they didn't just call a girl fat. They harassed her for years. What's she supposed to do when targeted in this way? She can't beat them up because they didn't hit her. She could call them names back, but there were five of them and one of her. Verbal abuse is every bit as serious as physical abuse. I'd say there's plenty of common sense involved in punishing those five students.

As to the rest of your post, I don't see what it has to do with bullying so I'll just let it be.

You definately don't "get it" if you don't find a difference between name calling and physical bullying.

Verbal abuse only carries the ability to damage by the power that is assigned to it by the receiver.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

An example of being ridiculous would be I had to go to my sons school a few weeks back because he drew a picture of an FBI agent, badge and all SAID FBI with his gun drawn storming a building that said BAD GUY HIDEOUT across the top, I was told that anything depicting guns was not tolerated and he would be suspended if it happened again. Give me a break, he has a 98 average, gets anywhere from 95-105 on tests. The Principal took me on the side at the end of the meeting and said the teacher was off her rocker my son is a lovable little 7yo boy with not an angry bone in his body, ( he visits her all the time just to say hi, he's a friendly kid) but she had to call us in to avoid conflict with the teacher.

Its not such an extreme statement to say all zero tolerance policies are devoid of the common sense required to see clearly enough through a situation to find the simple resolution.

I have yet to see a zero tolerance policy that didn't cause worse problems , the modern catchphrase for this is "unintended consequences".

When people lack common sense they will always experience unintended consequences when left to their own devices.

Thats the rub, their own devices are they think they know whats better for other people .
Theres something goin on in their mind that they are not consciously aware of, they think they are God.
With such an impaired (fight or flight) logic they leap to extremes, zero tolerance policies are the result.

But don't expect them to change, the paradox is it would take common sense to see the problem caused by lack of common sense.

When the source of common sense is denied, we can't have it.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Thats the rub, their own devices are they think they know whats better for other people .

Isn't that pretty much a school administrator's job? To decide what's best for "other people"--those people being the students at the school?

Common sense in this case seems to me to be pretty clear. It's common sense that we try to protect those who can't or won't protect themselves (those people in this case being children being victimized by aggressive bullies.) I hope you see that as common sense. It's a pretty basic building block for many of our policies as a nation, and for most religions as well. "Common sense" is those things we all agree on, and I think most agree with the spirit of making policies that protect the weak.

I've seen plenty of zero-tolerance policies that improved the situation. You might not agree that the situation is improved, but that's a difference in political philosophy rather than an objective overview of the situation. To my mind things get better when you do what you can to control harmful behaviors. Bullying is a harmful behavior and should not be tolerated by school administrators.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Yes I see your point, I agree.