Water Softener Question

[mscher]

Re: Water Softener Question

Well call me uninformed and susceptible to hype.

I DO know that I had to replace the electronics on both the Culligan and Ecowater. More than the price difference. The heat here, tends to be hard on them. If a unit doesn't have one, it can't fail.

I'm not a water softener expert, nor do I want to be. That's the whole point of a system that I don't have to mess with or spend extra $$$ on.

The electronics are usually the first component to bail, in a water softener. It's usually too expensive to repair, so they just end buying a whole new unit. That's why the cheapies only have a 1 year warranty.

Kinetico softeners have a 10 year warranty. I have seen several that have had been operating untouched (except for adding salt), for well over 15 years.

It is not just hype.

 

[mscher]

Re: Water Softener Question

They cost very little more to manufacture than others do. They are just able to over hype their non electric and their no down time features to lure in all the uninformed for premium prices.

Take it for what it is worth. They do no more than any other softener and if you cannot stand one hour of downtime, once every 3-6 days in the middle of the night, then that feature is of value. Otherwize you are paying thru the nose for very little.

Digital electronic units like Home Depot's and Sears use about a $1.76 worth of electricity a year.

I have never know anyone who purchased a Kenetico softener, who was sorry they did.

I cannot say the same for those who purchased some of the cheapies and had to replace them 5 years later.

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Water Softener Question

Thanks again for your responses.

I like receiving a variety of opinions and I appreciate hearing your different ideas. The symptoms we have include, dark rings in our toilet bowls, white deposits on our kitchen sink, calcification on bathtub under where faucet used to leak, white deposits on glasses, etc.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan to see if I can get a copy of the results of the water samples sent out by the fellow who takes care of the town water and then I will go from there.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

.....I plan to see if I can get a copy of the results of the water samples sent out by the fellow who takes care of the town water and then I will go from there.

Be sure to get a number for silica. If it is above 20 ppm it will likely be responsible for some of your mineral deposits. If so, their is no reasonable remedy for it. Water softeners or any other 'filters' will have zero effect on it.

 

[OLDSPUD]

Re: Water Softener Question

one item I have not seen talked about is the difference in salt usage. I have had Kinnetico systems for over ten yesrs now. The big difference between all the others and kinnetico is the usage of salt. I fill my kinnetico tank about every 10 or 11 months. When I had a Culligan, I was hauling salt downstairs every six weeks. That is worth the dollar difference to me. They may cost as much as 1.5 to 2K more than the standard good units that run on an electric timer. A bag of salt these days, I prefer the pellets, is anywhere from $2.00 to $4.00.

If you plan on staying in your home for a few years, just pencil it out, and buy what works for you.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

Be sure to get a number for silica. If it is above 20 ppm it will likely be responsible for some of your mineral deposits. If so, their is no reasonable remedy for it. Water softeners or any other 'filters' will have zero effect on it.

Mike,
Silica whether in solution or colloidal is usually more of a problem in industrial processes than in domestic water supply.
But if the silica number is listed in your water profile, and is higher than ~ 60 PPM, it may be an issue for you.

WizeOne has already indicated that "there is no reasonable remedy for this". I think what he means is that he is not familiar with any...I can only think of 4 or 5 tried and true solutions, from standard ion-exchange technology to coagulation methods. They give good results.

I am not sure why he is so intent on clouding the picture here when he clearly has little to contribute from an accuracy or content perspective.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

Mike,
Silica whether in solution or colloidal is usually more of a problem in industrial processes than in domestic water supply.
But if the silica number is listed in your water profile, and is higher than ~ 60 PPM, it may be an issue for you.

WizeOne has already indicated that "there is no reasonable remedy for this". I think what he means is that he is not familiar with any...I can only think of 4 or 5 tried and true solutions, from standard ion-exchange technology to coagulation methods. They give good results.

I am not sure why he is so intent on clouding the picture here when he clearly has little to contribute from an accuracy or content perspective.

If for silica in solution, you are implying ion exchange, you would mean De-ionization, ie DI (strong base cation and anion resins). Yes that will work but it will also disolve any metal that the DI water comes in contact with. Not to mention the DI process will bankrupt you for water volumes usually used in domestic situations.

If you mean silica in suspension (colloidal in nature), then yes, coagulation will work. Question is, if he has it, which one is it. In my experience, in my area, it is most often found in solution. You can choose between the high capitol cost of Reverse Osmosis or the high recurring maintainance costs of DI. Either way, if you have metalic plumbing (including many appliances) you will have to re-buffer the water.

I also beg to differ with you on the level of silica that will cause problems in the home. A mere 20 ppm, after a short time, will render your shower glass doors as if they were frosted for Christmas decoration. Beyond that you begin to get rings around the water line in the toilet bowl, cloudy build up on chrome faucet fixtures and escutceons and finally build up on cermaic tile and porcelain appliances.

You can cast all the aspersions you like. I have a dozen, sucessful, whole house silica removal systems in service here in the PNW.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

You can cast all the aspersions you like.

Aspersions?
If you mean :
1) calling into question the knowledge of a professional plumber, whom you have never met, simply because he has preferences on what equipment he buys and where he buys it
2) Repeatedly stating very firm opinions on a number of brands of that type of equipment then mocking people who buy other than those touted ("uninformed....subject to hype").
3) broadly slandering the integrity of 9 out of 10 businesses which sell this equipment
4) calling out the competence of all labs doing water analysis.

and the one I particularly enjoyed
5) recommending a test for a substance, then stating that it can't be rationally treated anyway; then, when someone else points out that there are indeed treatments available, coming back with another post attempting to demonstrate a superior grasp of these treatments that supposedly weren't available in the first place.

.....actually, I would use a different word than aspersion...and in any case, that was not me, that was....well, for lack of a better word, you.

I have a dozen, sucessful, whole house silica removal systems in service here in the PNW.

If this means that you are in the business yourself....that casts a different light on your slamming of various other players in the business....and not a particularly favorable light.

I've seen other posts that you have made, in other forum sections, that contributed to the discussion, shared some knowledge, and were respectful to other participants; sort of what the moderators have in mind, I think.
Not sure what happened in this thread.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

Aspersions?
If you mean :
1) calling into question the knowledge of a professional plumber,Plumbers are generally busy plumbing. On the whole they make very poor water treatment experts. I have seen much plumber perscribed equipment that totally miss the mark for the conditions. As well I have seen much plumber installed equipment that had becomed orphaned because he was not knowledgable in the repair of it, nor did he carry any parts for it. whom you have never met, simply because he has preferences on what equipment he buys and where he buys it
2) Repeatedly stating very firm opinions on a number of brands of that type of equipment then mocking people who buy other than those touted ("uninformed....subject to hype").
3) broadly slandering the integrity of 9 out of 10 businesses which sell this equipment. I stand by it. There are of course exceptions but unfortunately water treatment has become a sales business with all of it's attendant hype and pressure from manufacturers to to put a piece of equipment in your garage at all costs.
4) calling out the competence of all labs doing water analysis. To this day, very true. Labs are very good at identifying issues. They are abysmal at perscribing realistic solutions that are readily available. It would be akin to asking the jet mechanic to pilot your fighter plane.
and the one I particularly enjoyed
5) recommending a test for a substance, then stating that it can't be rationally treated anyway; I never said that silica could not be treated. I said that there was no reasonable solution for it. If you call $10K and half of a garage bay reasonable, then we live on different planets then, when someone else points out that there are indeed treatments available, coming back with another post attempting to demonstrate a superior grasp of these treatments that supposedly weren't available in the first place.

.....actually, I would use a different word than aspersion...and in any case, that was not me, that was....well, for lack of a better word, you.



If this means that you are in the business yourself....that casts a different light on your slamming of various other players in the business....and not a particularly favorable light.

I've seen other posts that you have made, in other forum sections, that contributed to the discussion, shared some knowledge, and were respectful to other participants; sort of what the moderators have in mind, I think.
Not sure what happened in this thread.

xxxx

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

If this means that you are in the business yourself....that casts a different light on your slamming of various other players in the business....and not a particularly favorable light.

Interesting that you had no response to that.
The balance of your response was little more than self-serving defense of your casting aspersions upon most of the players in this field ,and posting a lot of opinion that is just inflammatory.
I was/am simply suggesting that you are making a very poor case....lots of "generally"...."on the whole"..."there are of course exceptions"....and not offering much that helps the original poster with his problem.
One of your public figures coined a great expression...Nabob of Negativity....very suitable.

You seem unaware of the similar meanings of rational and reasonable....after you state:

I never said that silica could not be treated. I said that there was no reasonable solution for it. If you call $10K and half of a garage bay reasonable, then we live on different planets

I have to ask, if this is such a non-starter, and there is no "reasonable solution" for it, then what is the point of testing for silica in the first place? Just a cost that returns no benefit...and more tellingly, how can you then rationalise what you wrote earlier:
"I have a dozen, sucessful, whole house silica removal systems in service here in the PNW."
By YOUR admission then, you are in the business of providing equipment that in YOUR words is not "a reasonable solution"?
That would certainly explain your jaded view of the business and why you would guarantee "that 9 out of 10 of them will still come up with something to sell you whether you need it or not." ....kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

Mike,
I apologise for the way this thread has been turned....not much lately that helps with your problem....and my fault in good measure.

You are on the right track sourcing whatever analysis info that the municipal gang have. I can't see any reason that they would not give you access....and if they did, you should probably want to know why...
Your remote location will somewhat restrict your choice of suppliers of whatever equipment you decide meets your needs, if any. But again, ask around and see what other people are using, and who sold/installed it....and what kind of results they are getting. That will let you know what solutions have been tried, which ones work, and who the players are that are reliable, honest etc. (I would like to think that in Canada it is more than 1 in 10....)

As a long term strategy, (pie-in-the-sky perhaps, but I know of a couple of locations where it worked) you might try to organise your property owners and lobby the municipal works dept. to do some pretreatment at their level.
There are some compounds that can be treated efficiently (in some cases even more efficiently)at the supply level.

You might also post any info that you get from the municipal water analysis and see what constructive advice gets offered.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Water Softener Question

A bag of salt these days, I prefer the pellets, is anywhere from $2.00 to $4.00.

If you use Potassium Chloride instead of Sodium Chloride... You're talking 20+ bucks a bag. You definitely want to make sure your system is efficient then...

-V

 

[v1_0]

Re: Water Softener Question

I still say if you can't see it, feel it, smell it, or taste it, then it is very likely that you do not need any treatment.

I cannot feel, smell, nor taste carbon monoxide, yet it could kill me. That may be a bit drastic an analogy, but does point to some truth.

Beyond that, much of our perception is relative: there's a nice experiment where you have three buckets of water: cold, lukewarm, and hot. You soak one hand in the cold water and the other in the hot water for a couple of minutes. Then you put them both in the lukewarm water... On one hand, the lukewarm water feels hot - on the other it feels cold.

Now to the point: you may 'feel', 'taste', and possibly even 'smell' something and not perceive it as abnormal - if its something that you're used to (always had in the water). Feel and taste are certainly subjective measurements in this case.

A lab analysis would be objective, on the things that they test for. Then you can decide how to handle it - you always have the option to leave it be.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

.....I cannot feel, smell, nor taste carbon monoxide, yet it could kill me......

No one was talking about health related issues here v1_0. We are talking about natural elements in the water that could cause issues with plumbing, fixtures, laundering, bathing and general aesthetics. That being said, I stick with my advice.

If any health related contaminants are suspected, then of course a lab analysis is warranted. If that were to be the case then one would need to specify to the lab exactly what they are concerned with. Each and every potential substance would require a specific test proceedure. There is no simple analytical proceedure that could spit out a list of everything that is in the water.

If you were to look at a list of substances that municipalities routinely test for, it would near bankrupt you to try to duplicate it.

As for Potassium Chloride as a salt substitute, it is a poor choice. It is such a plentiful compound that it should be cheaper than dirt, but as mentioned, it is not. In addition it is only 80% as efficient in the ion exchange process and it is more likely, than salt, to mush up in the salt tank and cause salt bridging.

Furthermore, the rational for using it is out of an unfounded fear that properly functioning water softeners put salt in your water.(not) It is true that water softening imparts a small but calcuable trace of sodium only into the water stream. It is based on the original hardness of the water. Only in circumstances of severe dietary sodium restriction requirements should one be even slightly concerned with it.

If you were to drink two quarts of softened water, initally at 10 grains per gallon hard, you would be getting the added sodium equivalant of eating less than one slice of unbuttered bread.

Not a very good return on investment I say!