May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

[hokiepoq]

I've owned a number of boats I've bought used. Granted they've been 15 years or so old at the time when I bought them, but I ALWAYS run into the problem of wood in the kiel area breaking up and the wood getting wet. I don't know if its a function of time or the nature of roller trailers, but it always happens. I may be looking for another used boat. Are any immune to this problem? I know Seapro boats don't have wood, but I see they're going out of business. Not that I would be buying a new boat, but not sure why they're going under. Do Boston Whalers hold up better? Grady Whites? I'm not one for glamor in a boat, but breaking up and leaking is something I would like to avoid. Any suggestions on brands? Thanks!

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

whalers are great and hold their value. some gradys have wood. as the old saying goes you get what you pay for. there are several no wood manufacturers, but you pay for them. i do not like roller trailers.

Buying a boat

1st you need to decide what you want to use it for, fishing, cruising, or water sports.

2nd how many people adults, children you want on board of the average outing.

3rd outboard, inboard-outboard, or inboard power plant.

4th Budget, what you want to pay, and what you are willing to pay, when you find
Exactly what you want.

You can hire a marine surveyor, to inspect the boat, or you can do it yourself.

You are mainly looking for soft spots in the deck, transom, cracks, all signs of a rotten, under frame. You walk all over the deck, that a mallot, or hammer with wooden handle, using handle, tap all over the transom, a shape rap is good solid base, a thud, is questionable base.

The motor should be clean, no spots where the paint is discolored, or pealing from heat, having run hot. (This part for outboard motors Compression should be atleast 100psi, and within 10% of each other,)
Spark on all cylinders, good pee stream, check lower unit for water in oil.

The overall condition of the boat will tell you a lot, as to how it has been maintained.
boat motor combo, A 30 year old may be in better condition, than a 3 year old.

 

[hokiepoq]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Thanks for the advice. I guess I seemed a little too focused in my post mainly because its a sore spot of mine. I just starting browsing and to answer your question (1) fishing and watersports (tubing, water skiing), (2) 4 or five people, or less (3) I've always liked outboards, (4) budget depends on what I could get for my other boats. I was looking at the 18ft Boston Whaler Ventura as a possibility. People who have dual consoles seem to like the versatility. I currently have a 21ft Proline with a 200hp HPDI Yamaha on it - it's good for fishing, but not really watersports. Anyway, what manufacturers don't have wood in their hulls other than Seapro? Do Whalers?

Thanks for the advice.

 

[KCook]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Generally the boats with foam based construction, such as Whaler, will have a lot less wood. But that does not guarantee that they have no wood at all. Especially in the older boats. G-W certainly does have wood. Very different construction from the Whalers.

Like tashasdaddy I am not a fan of roller trailers.

Kelly

 

[Willyclay]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Brunswick Corp., owner of the Sea-Pro brand, announced in May 2008, it would cease production of the Sea-Pro line of boats in order to concentrate on its other brands. Although their press release made no mention of the same boats being sold under their other brand names, I have read posts on this forum from members who said that is, in fact, happening; i.e. Trophy.

Sea Fox, built by the famous Renken family, is another brand that claims "no wood" used in construction of its boats. Good luck with your search!

 

[109jb]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

I think I remember reading that Stratos boats are 100% composite now. Also, the Tahoe and Nitro boat lines tout a fiberglass stringer system. Don't know if they are 100% composite, but all composite stringers is a plus.

 

[dingbat]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Granted they've been 15 years or so old at the time when I bought them, but I ALWAYS run into the problem of wood in the kiel area breaking up and the wood getting wet. I don't know if its a function of time or the nature of roller trailers, but it always happens.

Whether its wet foam, rotten wood or composite delamination, 99% of the time it boils down to the owner?s ignorance or neglect.

There are just as many rotten out transoms and floors on boats sitting on bunk trailers as there are on roller trailers.

FWIW: I would not rule out a boat based solely on its composition. Construction techniques yes, but certainly not based on if they use wood, foam or composite construction.

There are still quite a few very good builders that still build with wood and have no intention of changing to apease something they consider a ?perceived? problem.

 

[jevery]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Here?s a list I compiled a while back doing searches for ?wood-free boats? and VEC, (virtual engineered composite), boats.
I believe that virtually all boats currently produced using the VEC process are completely wood-free. Also many quality wood-free boats continue to be constructed in the more conventional ?open mold? process. Bryant boats comes to mind, (My Avatar), and my first wood-free boat. After spending thousands to repair a rotten boat, I swore I?d never own another boat with wood. Why take the chance with many quality brands and types of wood-free boats available. I now own a Ranger and know that I?ll never have to repair any rotten structure on that boat.
Keep in mind, however, that the majority of today?s wood-free boats were not always of wood-free construction. The older models may have wood transoms, stringers, and decking. Depends on when that manufacturer switched to wood-free construction.
If you?re shopping for a wood-free used boat, do some research before assuming that a particular boat is truly of wood-free construction.

A partial list of manufacturers that currently produce wood-free boats, (this list may contain inaccuracies), Allison, Angler, Aquasport, Avocet, Bass Cat, Bertram, Bryant, Bumble Bee, Carver, Caravelle, Carolina Skiff, Champion, Cobalt, Defiance, Dolphin, Ebbtide, Four Winns, Glastron, Hatteras, Hydra-Sports, Interceptor, Key Largo, Key West, Larson, Marquis, Mastercraft, Nautic Star, Nitro, Panga Marine, Pro Craft, Pro Sports, Progression Offshore, ProKat, Ranger, Rinell, Robalo, Sea Chaser, Sea Hunt, Sea King, Sea Quest, Sea Ray, Seaswirl, Skeeter, Stratos, Steiger Craft, Triumph, Triton, VIP, Wellcraft, World Cat

And I?m sure there are many more to add to this list.

 

[KCook]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Such a list applies only to CURRENT boats. 15 years ago almost all of those brands had significant wood in their boats.

Kelly

 

[dingbat]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Here is a good article about composite construction barrowed from Bassboat Central. If your thinking about buying composite you better know what your buying into. You could just be trading in one problem for the another.

Composite Construction


A while ago on one of the bulletin boards a question was raised as to whether wood based construction was inferior and obsolete. After answering that post, I had to remember how many times I had done so on our showroom floor. I realized that it was a question that Nichols Marine as a Champion (wood based) and Skeeter (composite) dealer might be qualified to address for all of our "cyber customers".
So here is how I addressed the subject on the Bass Fishing Home Page...Boats & Motors board....

Post # 6257 1/3/98:
I sell Champion and Skeeter boats. Champion uses plywood and end grain balsa in the construction of their boats. Since 1995 Skeeter has been making the transition to all composite structural components in their boats. Hopefully I don't have an axe to grind either way.
First, I think it's important to define what "composites" are and the various methods of composite construction. Today, anything that is not wood is being called composite. That includes fiberglass, poured or injected foam, honeycomb or foam based products such as Klegecell, beetboard, aluminum and steel.

You really have two very distinct composite construction methods.
The first is to use non wood products as direct replacements for wood components. That is where the basic construction of the two types of boat is the same (hull /stringers /floor) with the difference only being whether the components are wood based or not.
The second method is an "inner liner" method which uses fiberglass cavities injected with foam (forming a glass/foam/glass sandwich). Those Champion owners out there with Champion's composite or "liner" hulls have this type of construction.

Also, Gambler uses this "hull within a hull" method. The liner method really requires a 100% manufacturing commitment because it is a radically different way of building a boat. It is a very tooling intensive (outer and inner hull molds in addition to cap molds) and requires training your people for a different methodology.

I used to be a Gambler Dealer and I remember Bob Ackerbloom (Gambler's owner) recounting to me how long it took him to develop the technique and how expensive it was to introduce new models (a good reason for Gambler's limited model selection).
Champion dropped this method for two reasons.
The first related to the cost of running "dual" manufacturing styles and the second related to poor repairability. It seems that the dual hull injected foam method severely limited access to the structure of the hull. Once the structural foam was compressed or damaged (i.e. due to an impact), it was impractical or impossible to repair and reinforce the damaged area from the outside. This resulted in liner boats that normally would be repairable (if they had been conventionally constructed), being total losses.

Using most of the off the shelf composite materials available today simply as wood replacements also has its problems. Wood as a structural reinforcement generally has better strength to weight ratios, panel span strength, durability under compressive loads and resistance to degradation over time. The major exception is that untreated or unprotected wood can and will rot if exposed to water over an extended period of time.

However, composites also have their Achilles heel. Fiberglass laminates that absorb water delaminate. If you doubt this, just talk to anyone who has experience with structural damage due to hull blistering. Foam based honeycombs tend to degrade under continued compressive loads. This is the reason that Allison Boats used Klegecell extensively as a structural component and uses steel in the transom. Products such as beetboard (so called because it is made from sugar beets), have the the nasty tendency to degrade over time. Composites usually have inferior panel span strength. That is why Skeeter strut supports their nested hatch composite decks.

What does this all mean? It all reminds me of the great "hand laid" versus "chopper gun" debate of the late 80's. Time has proven that a good chopper gun boat is better than a bad hand laid boat. Time has also proven that each has applications in which it is superior. Today just about everyone uses a skin chop to fill hard to reach voids and to prevent nasty cosmetic conditions like "print through".

In my opinion, composite technologies will go through a great range of growing pains from annoying to catastrophic. It is also my opinion that the increasing cost of wood and the marketability of "no wood construction" will demand the perfection of the technology and the invention of new and better materials.

Having wood in a boat (if it is PROPERLY protected) does not mean you are dealing with an inferior boat any more than a decal that says composite means you are dealing with a superior boat.
In the final analysis, it's going to come down to your confidence that the builder has command of whatever materials and methods it chooses to use and has the history, track record and financial wherewithal to be able to stand behind their products.
A well made boat will never be obsolete.
Rico Nichols Marine

 

[jevery]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Here?s an article from the manufacturers? perspective,

?Wood vs. Composite: Which is better - Wood or Composite Construction? Here's what Boatbuilders say. ?Trailer Boats April, 2003

Link, (push ?Preview?)
http://www.box.net/shared/a7ex7ugw08

My concern would be that even with a quality constructed wood transom, it would only take one careless employee that fails to properly reseal a thru-hull fitting or bolt to begin the process of rot.

 

[earlby]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Thanks for the advice. I guess I seemed a little too focused in my post mainly because its a sore spot of mine. I just starting browsing and to answer your question (1) fishing and watersports (tubing, water skiing), (2) 4 or five people, or less (3) I've always liked outboards, (4) budget depends on what I could get for my other boats. I was looking at the 18ft Boston Whaler Ventura as a possibility. People who have dual consoles seem to like the versatility. I currently have a 21ft Proline with a 200hp HPDI Yamaha on it - it's good for fishing, but not really watersports. Anyway, what manufacturers don't have wood in their hulls other than Seapro? Do Whalers?

Thanks for the advice.

Sailfish (Seminol Marine) make boats with zero wood

 

[hokiepoq]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

Thanks for all the information. Very enlightening. I guess in looking at it all, this begs the question of what are the best made boats? Knowing that I'm leaning toward all composite, are Sea-Pro good boats? I already know that Boston Whalers are even though they have wood. I haven't been impressed with the finish of Seafox that I've seen at boat shows, but maybe that's only skin deep. Thanks for all the help.

 

[KCook]

Re: May be looking for a boat - any "woodless" boats?

In fishing boats I suspect the answer is size sensitive. The guys churning out the best 18' boats will not necessarily be the same ones churning out the best 36' boats.

Kelly