I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

[chosos]

The starter engages, and the flywheel spins, but no boom.

From what I can tell, I have spark, but I'm not getting any fuel beyond the carb. I picked up fresh fuel, mixed 50:1, and picked up some new plugs.

If I try and start it, I get the starter spinning the flywheel and then when it fails to start and the choke opens again, fuel comes out of the front of the carb. I checked the plugs and there isn't even any fuel on them... They are still as dry as they were out of the package.

On the carb itself, I see WE13 6/86 and 628061. I also tried looking up a rebuild kit, but haven't had much luck. Is there a PDF of this carb available anywhere or can someone give me a hand with a few Q's?

I took the carb apart, and cleaned it out. There is a brass sleeve over one of the needles that has 4 holes in it. Is that supposed to sit over top that needle and float freely? or does that get locked in place with the set scew?

How many turns are the adjustments supposed to have? Also, the spring for the float, how is that supposed to sit? Which way is it supposed to apply pressure on the float? That spring was a PAIN and I want to make sure I got it back in the correct way.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

You really need to buy a manual as it is too hard to explain the carb in text.

Check your compression as if it is low, the engine will not start. If the engine is kicking back and the starter dropping out, check the fuel pump for tears.

John

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

If the fuel pump is torn, wouldn't the gas not get into the carb, or will it get there with me simply priming it?

Engine has compression, but the starter is not dropping out. in fact, the engine is not kicking back at all.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

How much compression? If it is 30 pounds low, that may be enough to keep it from running.

Some spitting from the carb is normal due to the nature of the two stroke engine.

Did you ever run dry at wide open throttle and have it backfire? If so, there is the possibility of your having bent reeds. Usually an engine with bent reeds will run but poorly so I don't think that is your issue.

Do you have your idle mixture screw set at 1 to 11/4 out?

You say from what you can tell you are getting spark. Does this mean that you pulled the plugs, grounded them and watched the spark jump accross the electrode?

John

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

i picked up the boat earlier this week. the previous owner claimed it ran, and when i went to buy it - it didn't run.

i have nothing to check the lbs of compression. i can only say that by hand turning the flywheel that there is some compression.

i checked the spark with an inline ignition spark checker and it said if the engine didnt start and the bulb flashes = probably a fuel system problem. I also changed the spark plugs and there is NO fuel on the new plugs at all. That leads me to believe something in the fuel system is messed up. I've also never used surface gap plugs before, do these normally not get wet like traditional plugs?

The carb doesn't really spit. I would more or less say it vomits out fuel on a failed attempt to start after the choke opens back up. its enough to where I need to grab a rag and soak it up.

1 to 11/4 out

Yes idle screw is at 1 1/4 (that is the one on the top of the carb, correct?)

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

Here is the wiring harness. figure I'd post these in case anything looks out of place.

I cant seem to notice any way to increase throttle without being in gear. Can you not throttle up while in neutral?

This was my first time tearing into the carb, so I put it back together just like it came apart. If someone prior to me assembled it incorrectly, I'd never know.

 

[Jeremy90bay]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

Just throwing this out there, Do you have the safety lanyard switch on? Also you can borrow a compression tester from autozone for no charge. you pay for the tool and when you return it they give you all your money back.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

The carb is connected properly. The throttle is activated by the bellcrank behind it which is connected to the trottle cable and timing linkage.

To throttle up at idle, you pull out on the throttle handle and push forward. This will move the carb throttle plate a little and the timing bar a little. This gives a fast idle of about 1500 to 2000 rpm.

You talk about something moving up and down the needle in the carb. There should be nothing moving in the carb except the float and the needle valve attached to it. In the center of the carb with the float bowl off, is the main metering nozzle. This is a brass sleeve with holes in the sides. It screws into the carb body. When you pull it off, there is a slender tube inside the carb body which is the idle tube. On the side of the carb body where the main nozzle screws in is a brass screw which is the main metering jet.

I'm wondering if your main jet or nozzle is missing and that is causing an extreme flooding condition. Does what I described look like what you saw in the carb?

John

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

what you described is not exactly how my carb is. that piece i drew sits inside the carb. it does not screw into anything. it has the holes you describe (metering nozzle?) and fits over the slender idle tube. This metering nozzle looks to be held up in place by the bottom screw on the bowl.

I also have the main nozzle scew in there as well.

I tried the neutral throttle control and it doesnt seem to turn anything in the motor. what should i see moving? I pull the lever in to the center of the boat and move the lever towards the bow, right? i thought thats how it worked, and tried it yesterday, but figured i was wrong when i didnt see anything moving.

i have the safety lanyard depressed. however, i dont want it on there until the boat is fixed, so i jumpered the connection so it is always closed.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

It is possible that on your model carb, the main nozzle is just inserted into the well and the bowl screw holds it on. Sounds like a production cut to me to save time and money threading.

When you pull the lever towards you and push it forward, there must be some movement of the carb and timing linkage. If it does not move, then your rigging is not correct.

This engine is manually timed and any linkage mis ajustment will affect starting and running. The only way to rig these engines is from the bottom up and not cut any steps. The Clymer Force Outboard Shop Manual has a whole section on timing and syncronization. Its not that it is hard but you have to do it in the right sequence to get it correct. Trying to adjust the cable or idle screw will only result in more misadjustment.

At this point, I suggest you get a manual, read up on the process and email me when you want to get started. Once you read the procedures, I can talk you through it.

Regards,

John

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

Uh! You mentioned surface gap plugs but that engine has two old style coils which usually means no electronic ignition. It will not have the power to fire surface gap plugs. Try a J4J, J6J, or equivalent and see if you get start.

I do not see any CD box in any of the photos so that engine probably has points. Pull the flywheel and check to see that they are set to .020 and clean.

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

I could be wrong, but the plugs for this motor were said to be the champion plugs i purchased, or NGK BUHX or something. I dug it up on another post, unless someone posted incorrect info. Prior to this, I pulled out a pair of normal NGK single electrode plugs.

Clymer's manual ordered. it should be here friday.

I guess I'm at a loss here. If the timing is off, the engine should burp or kick back, or even run rough. I'm not even getting that far. Before I jump into retiming my engine, I'd like to first solve my fuel delivery problem. I also went back out there and moved the throttle lever, and did not see any movement in the engine. What part should I be looking at? Should the butterfly valve on the carb move or something like it does when in gear?

In terms of the fuel deliver issue:
I took the pump off and there were no tears. Cab seems okay. Fuel gets to the carb bowl, and gets to the filter, because when I unscrew the filter, gas comes dripping out. What else would hold up the fuel flow along that path?

Also, in one of the pictures, there is some red/brown gunk melted on top of the carb. Should that be there?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

The red/brown gunk is put there by the factory to seal the pressed in plug on the carburetor. This is normal.

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

ok good. if you guys can think of any suggestions or common problem area i shpould dig int let me know. i just dont understand how fuel isnt getting to the plugs. also can someone else confirm that surface gap plugs are incorrect for this engine?

if taking pics helps let me know what else to snapp of photos of.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

It depends on your model as to what plug you use. On the 1987B model, you use a UL81C and if you have a 1987C use a L82C. I believe the point gap is .030 on both plugs and they are traditional L gap plugs.

Regards,

John

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

well on the mount it says 507X7A. I'm not sure how to ID the model # on this aside from that.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

Like I said, you need a bent electrode plug for that engine. Listen to Frank! When he tells you that you have the incorrect plug, you have the incorrect plug installed.

Carbs were all the same yet all slightly different. Inside the bowl there is a large diameter (about 1/4 inch) dip tube which delivers fuel to the venturi. this dip tube screws into the casting in some models and in others it slips in and is held in place by a spring between it and the bowl nut. This tube does not function until the engine is running about 2000 RPM or so and will not cause lack of fuel at starting except for choking.

HOWEVER: INSIDE this tube is a smaller diameter tube (about 3/32 inch) which also delivers fuel to the low speed circuit at the top of the carb. It is pressed into the carb body at the top--right behind the needle in the front. It is regulated by this needle and delivers fuel to the chamber covered by the welsh pluh and the sed sealing gunk.

If this tube has fallen out OR is clogged, no fuel will be delivered to the engine.

Now, after all that, are you pushing in on the key and holding it while cranking to choke the engine? If you don't, very little fuel will be delivered and the plugs may look dry. You should hear the choke clicking closed. If it does not, try closing it by hand--sometimes the shaft is a little sticky. Lacking that, while a friend cranks, put your palm over the carb to manually choke it. Your palm should get wet with gas.

Some of these Force engines are very fussy and on a cold start simply will refuse to kick unless put into fast idle/ warm-up position. This will advance timing a couple of degrees and crack open the carb butterfly--not a lot, but in neutral, it is enough to let the engine run about 1500 RPM

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

Okay, I have some champion J6J's here from an old evinrude im working on. The previous owner had NGK B7HS plugs in this thing and at first glance i can tell you they are probably about 1/8" longer. Hope they didn't screw anything up.

I did not have a spring inside the carb to hold up that metal tube i drew. It was only held in place by the bow screw.

I blew the entire carb out and cleaned it with picks and carb cleaner. I can rip it back off and try again. I see no harm in it. I know gas is getting to the carb, because there is a bowl full of gas.

If its not the little tube that's clogged, but instead is the crap behind that under the red gunk, how can i clean that out?

 

[chosos]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

okay, new plugs still dry.

is there a way to prime this engine with fuel? I'd like to intentionally flood it so i can see fuel on the plugs.

 

[john from md]

Re: I need some help with a 1987 50HP Force

You can spray a fuel/oil mix right into the carb intake.

Was your compression withing spec? I say that because on a two cycle engine, good piston/ring integrity is necessary for getting fuel to the cylinder.

John