Having your boat searched?

[fdmsiv]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Everyone that has posted so far agrees that being courteous and respectful to the officers is a good way to go. But we are only about 0.001% of the boating population.

I think every single person in this country should have to serve a mandatory amount of time in the food service industry. I am glad that I spent some time waiting tables, you begin to get a sense of how intolerant, ungrateful, and down right mean people are. People don't realize the amount of work you are doing for them, and then jump all over you for the slightest mistake. Oh and I forgot, they are never ever ever ever wrong, no matter how illogical or stupid their account is, you the servant are always wrong and made a mistake.

People would learn how to treat someone, with respect, with dignity, like a human being. This would benefit both parties, both the people and the man.

On a side note, had I been cruising along and saw a boat in a cove with a couple of people hanging out, music playing, I would have thought ya'll were either drinking or smoking(tobacco that is so fresh its still green). We make quick decisions based on stereotypes, and so do the officers, it is unfortunately part of human nature. They are only HUMAN. They are also there when needed.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2008/07/coast_guard_rescues_family_fro.html

 

[sidechoke67]

Re: Having your boat searched?

I often see people throwing under-sized fish in buckets, and am often wishing the DNR would board their boats and check out the fish they are keeping. If they can't at least look in buckets and coolers, there is no point to having size limits for fish.

 

[norm1057]

Re: Having your boat searched?

For me, I would have not allowed a search. If the officer insisted, my duty as an American is to demand and document the officers probable cause, follwed by a discussion with his supervisor, then followed up, along with an attorney, to the sitting judge. Americans need to stop bowing down because of the inconvenience. That is the only way things will ever change.

 

[fdmsiv]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Sorry but such an assumption is both wrong and is called stereotyping and is illegal.

I agree with you 110% but it is human nature. The human mind make decisions based on what our senses tell us. We can train ourselves not to act on them, but when was the last time you heard a loud crash and didn't flinch or instantly turn around to see what it was. My point is this, the officers are only human, just like you and me. I can't say I have never stereotyped someone or something, maybe some one can, but I can put on some other shoes for a mile or two.


Right on sidechoke67, my tax dollars are paying for the officers, but I am also paying to stop some SOB from taking more then their fair share. I would like my children to be able to land a 50lb bull red, but if there is no enforcement of the limits and rules, that dream may not come true.

 

[JasonB]

Re: Having your boat searched?

I bet on getting checked about every 3rd time out, whether fishing or just floating with the family. Our enforcing agency in the TWRA (Tennessee Wildlife Res. Agency). In nearly 10 years on the same bodies of water, I have been fortunate not to run into any officers with a bad attitude.

I can be the only boat on a stretch of the river fishing and an officer will ease up to a few feet away and politely ask me to show my license, verify my reg sticker is current, show my lifejacket if i don't have it on, a fire extinguisher, and if I have any fish in the boat. Since I'm catch/release only, they often ask for a description of what I've caught that day so they can log it for their statistics. Never set foot on my boat and tried not to disturb my fishing hole.

If I'm out with the family on our larger bowrider, they will pull along with one officer holding the boats apart while I show PFD's for everyone and a fire extinguisher. 60 seconds and they are on their way. They generally don't single us out, they check everyone in order. I have only been stopped twice in a day once. They realized they had already checked us and waved as they turned away. I can't remember one ever boarding us.

I have no problem with these types of checks as I see these guys working their collective tails off every weekend. Watched them stop a drunk boater from casting off a couple weeks ago. I have seen them escort countless drunk or unsafe operators off the water. I'm sure there are bad ones out there, but I haven't run into them yet.

 

[Nandy]

Re: Having your boat searched?

The question is, What constitudes probable cause?

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Having your boat searched?

The question is, What constitudes probable cause?

In most cases, it's the judgment of the LEO involved. It goes like this:

"Yes. I observed furtive movements by the boat's driver, who appeared to be concealing something as I approached."

The deal is that, in the majority of states, the boat cops, whatever their agency, can board boats without warrant. It takes nothing more than a statement like the one above to show probable cause in court, even if nothing is found during the search.

If it's the Coast Guard, forget it. They can board and search legally at any time. They're part of Homeland Security now, and they can pretty much do as they please on the water.

Now, it can be argued that none of these laws are constitutional. But that can't be argued with the LEOs getting ready to board your vessel. That's for later...after they've left emptyhanded.

Insisting on your constitutional rights in an actual situation and refusing boarding or a search will get you in handcuffs. You could even be right, but you'll lose anyhow.

The DNR folks have even more leeway in many states. They can search for illegal catches on your boat, in your car, and even, in Minnesota, in the freezer of your house. In Minnesota, a DNR Conservation Officer can stop your tow vehicle and boat to search for exotic plants and animals at any time. So far, nobody has been able to make a constitutional argument stick.

Such incidents are rare, indeed. If one happens to you, then report the incident and make it an official written report...after the fact. Copping an attitude with the guys about to board your boat is just going to open a serious can of worms, and I don't mean nightcrawlers.

The place to deal with this is in your state legislature and at the federal legislative level. On the water is not the place.

 

[rolmops]

Re: Having your boat searched?

The most effective way to keep nosy law enforcement officers who are on a power trip out of your private space is by giving them your lawyers card. This usually instantly discourages them from doing anything that might aggravate the boat owner without having very good reason to do so.

 

[xxxflhrci]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Not to beat a dead horse, and/or disagree with you, Injun. . .but no, they do not have the right to search without a warrant, ever. If they have PC, they may use that to get said warrant. . .but no authority anywhere in the country can search anything without a warrant, unless you consent to it.

Actually, the Carroll Doctrine allows warrantless searches of vehicles if there is PC.

http://www.accesskansas.org/kbi/PDF/court/RCD19250302.pdf

 

[marine4003]

Re: Having your boat searched?

interesting thread...anyone read my post under "225hp jetskis and the clueless" its under non boating topics..i ran into the SAME issue with a LEO who wanted to "search for contraband" after i was stopped for being in a go-fast boat that i guess somehow resembled another boat cruising thru a no wake..even after i politely asked why..they continued to treat me like a criminal.not to mention my wife and 2 year old daughter were on board,not a bunch of beer guzzeling teens.read the post,the similarity's are amazing.

 

[Nandy]

Re: Having your boat searched?

In most cases, it's the judgment of the LEO involved. It goes like this:

"Yes. I observed furtive movements by the boat's driver, who appeared to be concealing something as I approached."

That is exactly my point. They can make probable cause out of much anything including your behavior... I would not argue with a badge, I will wait until he is done to take it to his superior, legislature or the press... "dont taze me bro!!!" lol!

 

[45Auto]

Re: Having your boat searched?

I feel the same way, and believe me these guys poked in every possible nook and cranny. As I said, if it were my boat it would not have happened. I guess some of us take our personal rights and freedoms more seriously than others.

Easy to talk trash when you don't have to back it up. What exactly have you done to defend your rights and freedoms lately? Can you refer us to any court cases where you have defended these rights and freedoms?

Your boat would have been searched whether you like it or not. Either with you standing there all PO'ed or sitting in their boat in handcuffs. Then you can take it to court and try to get the laws changed.

 

[bhammer]

Re: Having your boat searched?

I think every single person in this country should have to serve a mandatory amount of time in the food service industry. I am glad that I spent some time waiting tables, you begin to get a sense of how intolerant, ungrateful, and down right mean people are. People don't realize the amount of work you are doing for them, and then jump all over you for the slightest mistake. Oh and I forgot, they are never ever ever ever wrong, no matter how illogical or stupid their account is, you the servant are always wrong and made a mistake.

Travel to many other countries and you will find highly trained and educated wait staff and very few of the same issues you deal with here in the US in restaurants. Most treat the job as a careerer, go to school to learn the specialty and work the same place for years.... Here in the US, we tend to hire cheaper labor with lower morals, and give them too many tables, hence the sorry service.

I have the pleasure in my line of work to be able to eat at high class restaurants on a regular basis. I have to continually remind myself when I go to a chilli's or TGIF that, that is where I am 'cause the service sucks almost every time I go.

My pet peves... Letting my water get empty, getting an order wrong, having to ask who gets what plate... Another one, is bringing the main course before finished with the appetizer. A good wait staff doesn't let this happen, and IMHO, and yes, I will *****. The water is the biggest and if I have to ask to get water, I will generally ask the person to check back more frequently to check it. If it gets empty again, I will ask for a manager. I once had a tress, set the pitcher on the table so I could fill my own. I ate my dinner with my wife and kids and then asked to see the manager. The meal was comped, as it should have been.

Now, off my horse and back to the OP topic. thanks for letting me hijack this for a second....

 

[45Auto]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Not to beat a dead horse, and/or disagree with you, Injun. . .but no, they do not have the right to search without a warrant, ever. If they have PC, they may use that to get said warrant. . .but no authority anywhere in the country can search anything without a warrant, unless you consent to it.

Some of you really might want to do a quick search on Title 19.1581, which applies to customs and revenue officers, the Carroll Doctrine (Motor Vehicle Exception to 4th Amendment) referenced by one of the posters above which applies to ALL law enforcement, and your state wildlife and fisheries laws. It really would be amusing to be in another boat watching what happens to you when you tell these guys they can't search your boat. Not that I agree with them, but unfortunately they are usually VERY familiar with the laws which govern their search and will stand behind them in court (been there, done that, got the t-shirt). At least become familiar with the laws that you are subject to and elect people that will get them changed if you can.

US Code 19.1581:

TITLE 19 > CHAPTER 4 > SUBTITLE III > Part V > ? 1581Prev | Next ? 1581. Boarding vessels
(a) Customs officers
Any officer of the customs may at any time go on board of any vessel or vehicle at any place in the United States or within the customs waters or, as he may be authorized, within a customs-enforcement area established under the Anti-Smuggling Act [19 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.], or at any other authorized place, without as well as within his district, and examine the manifest and other documents and papers and examine, inspect, and search the vessel or vehicle and every part thereof and any person, trunk, package, or cargo on board, and to this end may hail and stop such vessel or vehicle, and use all necessary force to compel compliance.

Synopsis of the Carrol Doctrine (US vs Carroll, Supreme Court, 1924):

"The Court?s approval of an immediate warrantless search justified by the automobile?s mobility implicitly recognized an exigent circumstances exception to the warrant requirement. Carroll created a bright-line rule that presumes exigency based upon the mobility of an automobile (or other mobile vehicle) suspected to contain contraband or other evidence of criminal activity. Thus, the original premise of Carroll?s automobile exception was that a warrantless search is reasonable and necessary because a search could be thwarted simply by moving the automobile out of the ?locality or jurisdiction in which the warrant must be sought.? The time needed to obtain a search warrant in 1924, including travel time to and from the courthouse as well as the time to complete the actual paperwork, obviously would have permitted the vehicle to leave the jurisdiction. The alternative?police immobilization of the vehicle for several hours or days?would have violated the Fourth Amendment proscription against unreasonable seizures without a warrant. Thus, the Carroll doctrine?the first recognized automobile exception?was born."

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Having your boat searched?

The DNR folks have even more leeway in many states. They can search for illegal catches on your boat, in your car, and even, in Minnesota, in the freezer of your house. In Minnesota, a DNR Conservation Officer can stop your tow vehicle and boat to search for exotic plants and animals at any time. So far, nobody has been able to make a constitutional argument stick.

Actually, it appears that someone has. See the following link and read the info provided by the site administrator (this is from a MN fishing forum), Scott.

Part of the problem with an issue like this is that there are all sorts of laws and constitutional issues involved, while at the same time, most of us are not legal experts. The simple fact of the matter is that we could all spend huge amounts of time researching laws and cases in our states, or states that we might go boating in. I'm sort of an information junkie, so I have a tendancy to spend a bit of time on such things, but I don't think the average person has the inclination nor the time to do the same. In that lies the problem, because most of us aren't going to be completely sure of when we have the right to refuse a search.

As I said before, I am a big supporter of the USCG and DNR type agencies, but also believe strongly in the right to be "unmolested" with repsect to lawful personal liberties. That said, where I disagree with some of the respondants here, is on when and where to fight the fight. Trying to do it out on the boat, with a couple of cranky water patrol officers doesn't seem smart to me.

If I believed the requested search to be inappropriate, or even illegal, I would decline to give permission in a very polite and nonconfrontational way. If the officers decided to proceed anyway, I would not resist in any manner. The reason why I am taking this position is very important, because by declining permission to search in this way, you lay the groundwork for an eventual ruling against the officers if the situation gets that far. At the same time, you are not likely to get yourself handcuffed and thrown in jail, only to have to go through a big deal to get out. If the law in your state supports you its very simple - they asked, you said no, they did it anyway, the law says they are not permitted to do that, and you win in the end.


http://www.invominnesota.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=701

 

[SBellew]

Re: Having your boat searched?

I'm with you Bubba, I think it sucks, and frankly the attitude among citizens is what has allowed it to happen. "I don't have anything to hide?" Bull, in this puritan culture everything fun IS against the law, but certainly not against the Constitution, and almost everyone DOES have something to hide. Let's be reasonable here, there isn't a freaking thing wrong with lots of what is illegal and will get you fined, taken to jail etc. Part of the idea of putting up barriers to police powers is to allow you to live in relative peace unless you are really doing something that is truly against the public good. I swear, people have become Pharisees when it comes to laws, as if we were meant to live by some of the ridiculous codes on the books.
There isn't any reason for a cop of any kind to search your boat unless they have a good reason, they work for us, they are paid by our taxes, citizens ought to retake their society back

Well said, we do need to stand up for ourselves. I am proud to be an American, but ashamed of my government and what 'We the people' have let it become.

 

[The-Machinist]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Lats weekend after catfishing all night below bagnal dam at lake of the ozarks, I had my self, My best friend, my boat, and all my gear/tackle boxes searched for over an hour by the Mo DNR. The reason? "You guys have been fishing for 14 hours, nobody fishes that long without being on something" This is BULL$#!+
Since when is there a time limit on how long you can fish? Am I way out of line here? I wasnt even asked if they could search. As soon as the boat was at the top of the ramp, 3 trucks swarmed us and held up ramp traffic while publicly searching us for over an hour. Nothing was there to find, and nothing was found. I personally have lost any bit of respect for DNR that I may have had in the past.

 

[DRIFTER_016]

Re: Having your boat searched?

Lats weekend after catfishing all night below bagnal dam at lake of the ozarks, I had my self, My best friend, my boat, and all my gear/tackle boxes searched for over an hour by the Mo DNR. The reason? "You guys have been fishing for 14 hours, nobody fishes that long without being on something" This is BULL$#!+
Since when is there a time limit on how long you can fish? Am I way out of line here? I wasnt even asked if they could search. As soon as the boat was at the top of the ramp, 3 trucks swarmed us and held up ramp traffic while publicly searching us for over an hour. Nothing was there to find, and nothing was found. I personally have lost any bit of respect for DNR that I may have had in the past.

I would be filing a formal complaint.

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Having your boat searched?

What kind of boat do you have that it took them an hour to search it? An Hour??

 

[The-Machinist]

Re: Having your boat searched?

During the course of said hour the boat was searched 3 times, the truck was searched twice, and my friend and I were stripped down to our skivvies and all of our chlothes was checked. Then they said a deputy with a k9 unit would be by shortly. Well, no k9 unit ever showed and eventually they reluctantly let us go. My boat is not big, but these guys were so sure that they would find something that they had to open everything. I mean all my tackle inserts were dumped on the floor every bag of soft plastics was dumped out. They even turned over a bucket of cut shad. They took the cover off of my outboard and searched it too. I feel I was profiled because I am a young guy with a couple of tattoos. It did not matter that I am also a married father of 2 and have never been in any trouble as an adult.