Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

bomar76

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Should have went with the Vortecs...
 

mtnrat

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

So are you guys saying that if someone wanted to go to vortec heads on a pre 85 350, they could just bolt them on, change intake manifold and valve covers and It would work? Use the same exhaust manifolds?
Thanks,
Sean
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

As far as I know the answer to that question is yes.

I used my original exhaust manifolds and all my other acessories (alt, p/s, etc) bolted right on.
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Ayuh,..........

It's the Highest Ratio of HorsePower to $s there Is,.......... Hands Down Winner............

For a Torquey Marine engine anyway.........
 

AdamB

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

yeah, but I just paid big bucks for my intake manifold.... I'm not looking for the best, just better than what I had. Still, since my 4000 lb boat can do 50 mph with painted rough bottum, it can only do better with these heads. I'll post the results than.
 

mtnrat

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

When changing to vortec heads on a older stock marine SBC would it be advantageous to change cams? I have read that just adding vortec heads to a stock 260hp marine SBC makes little difference. This true?
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

The Cam for Vortec heads is the Same Cam..............

You Could put in a SLIGHTLY Hotter Cam,...........
But,.....It's Not necessary,......
You'll get the 20+hp with Just the Heads,+ Intake..........
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Going to a Roller Cam in a Pre-87 Block requires some Machine Work,+ Lots of Aftermarket Hardware.....
 

mtnrat

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

I got that info from some threads on speedwake.com. However those guys over there seem to favour more HP over reliablility. I think they feel 20+hp gain is not much. They like to put in Comp cam #12-232-3.
12-236-3: HYDRAULIC: Biggest cam for inboard/outboard, good mid range with excellent response, noticeable idle.

Duration at .050: 218
Intake Valve Lift: 0.462
Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.477
Lobe Seperation: 112°
More specs here http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Search/CamDetails.asp?PartNumber=12-236-3 .
Does that look like too much cam for smooth everday pleasure boating?
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

The Duration is getting alittle Long,.. But will still Work........
And,...
The LSA is At the Upper Limits........
109* to 112* is the Window to keep Reversion from raising it's ugly head......
Anytime your Near the Edge,........ Well,.... You're on the Edge.........

It comes down to;
"However those guys over there seem to favour more HP over reliablility. I think they feel 20+hp gain is not much."
 

AdamB

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

well, the guy told me around 30 hp with the Dart Iron Eagle SS heads. That coupled with the alleged 20% increase in hp from the MPFI system should definitely put me near or just over the 300 hp limit of my alpha one.

I have about 520 hp in my Mustang with the original 302 (5.0) Did the whole thing, heads, cam, intake, supercharger etc. It'll rattle my teeth when idling, but then I could pull over to the curb if she breaks. I'd rather not mess with the cam on my mercruiser...

BTW, with the MPFI, I turn the key, wait for the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel rails then crank her for like .5 seconds and she fires up every time. Oh, and no pause when kicking in the 4 barrel like on my carb.

OH, BTW back to my original question, Dennis Moore recommended the best option for my year engine would be 441 heads with 2.02/ 1.6 valves for 20 hp. I went this route but with more efficient heads (and the shop I got them said they even polished the chambers and cleaned up casting defects) Dennis only said the Vortecs were best for 97 up engines (probably because of intake etc)
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

"Dennis only said the Vortecs were best for 97 up engines (probably because of intake etc)"

Coupled with the fact that the book was written before the published date of January 2000.........

The Aftermarket probably wasn't Up to Speed with their Parts Listings,+ Devolopments..........
 

AdamB

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Bondo-O,

That's exactly my thoughts. I read about the heart shapped combustion chambers of the Vortecs, and noticed the heart shapped combustion chambers of the Dart Iron Eagles.... hmmmmmm, coincidence? Maybe the aftermarket noticed the more efficient design and dare we say copied it? At least the way I went I get to keep my ntake manifold. Plus, gettin g my original heads baked and maged and mild port/polished would have cost me the same money. At least now I have new heads with a warranty and stainless valves with hardened seats and...
 

John_S

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

OH, BTW back to my original question, Dennis Moore recommended the best option for my year engine would be 441 heads with 2.02/ 1.6 valves for 20 hp. I went this route but with more efficient heads (and the shop I got them said they even polished the chambers and cleaned up casting defects) Dennis only said the Vortecs were best for 97 up engines (probably because of intake etc)


Dennis does recommend Vortec heads with earlier engines. He is very specific though. He recommends them with low-compression after-market quench style pistons. He does not recommend them for standard flat-top pistons. He covers quench and its importance in other sections of the book. This does seem to ignore the fact that all production vortecs come with low-compression dish pistons (non-ideal quench) but still provide 30hp over prior heads.

The dart iron eagles do appear to be designed similiar to the vortec chamber. Outside of the S/S dart head, they seem to be geared toward higher rpm hp, ie larger valves and larger runners. Did you go with the 180cc intake runners (smallest w/2.02 i valves)? Which size chambers? and which pistons do you have, dished or flat-top?

Dennis also covered building engines for the total pkg and final goals, in other chapters. If an engine/drive combination is only going to see 0-5Krpms, your choices should be geared to that range. Your head and induction choices are probably geared to 4-6K+ range. The rest of your engine and drive are geared toward a max 5K. Even if you went to water cooled headers, exhaust is now good for the higher rpms, but drive and engine are not designed to run sustained at these rpms.

While your choices are somewhat unbalanced, they may not be fatal. If your boating mostly involves light loads and WOT and near WOT running, it may work out fine. You may have issues with max people load and planing times, pulling-up water skiiers, and possibly even during long idling/no-wake zones.
 

AdamB

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Well, to answer your questions I have to say that I haven't had my heads off, only the intake manifold. The intake is this one http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=HLY-9901-101-1&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It is geared for higher rpms. I have rev'ed her to approx 5500 rpms now, only for short durations. I plan to go to higher pitch prop once I have the added hp from the heads.

I'm not looking for a miracle, just a little more hp and a reliable engine. The fuel injection is like night and day. Possibly like comparing a model T with a modern day car. And I believe it's safe to say that no aftermarket company has spent more $$ on R&D than companies such as GM (which is what my ECU is). I'm not comparing GM to Ford or Chyrsler, just after market like accel or Holley. I trust Chevy for my engines ECU.

I have to assume I have the flat top pistons, with the 8:1 compression. I think the Iron Eagles will up my compression (I already use premium fuel), and give me added hp. I already have added torque fgrom the intake...

I'll report back when I get everything installed later this month.
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

"Dennis also covered building engines for the total pkg and final goals, in other chapters. If an engine/drive combination is only going to see 0-5Krpms, your choices should be geared to that range. Your head and induction choices are probably geared to 4-6K+ range. The rest of your engine and drive are geared toward a max 5K. Even if you went to water cooled headers, exhaust is now good for the higher rpms, but drive and engine are not designed to run sustained at these rpms.

While your choices are somewhat unbalanced, they may not be fatal."


Well said John.........
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

That's an Open Plenem Intake,.......... You're building a Hot-Rod motor,........
Not a Boat Motor......

That Intake is the Worst for Torque,..............

If those heads you bought have Runners bigger than the 180ccs,........
It's Really going to be a Dog out of the hole..........


Btw,........ With 8:1 compression,............. You've got Dished Pistons......
 

John_S

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

I believe that flat-tops with low-compression heads (76cc)are around 9:1. Dished pistons would be around 8.5:1. With a high-compression head (64cc), compression will jump to around 10.25:1 and 9.5:1.

While I am not familiar with EFI systems and mapping them, airflow is airflow. I wouldn't put an open plenium on a street car, let alone a general use boat engine. An open plenium would be a strip car item. Your comments on how well it works with your current heads, is puzzeling though.

My suggestion is, if you find dished pistons, sell the darts and the injection system. Buy vortec heads and either a dual plane equivelent marine injection system or a marine 4brl carb and manifold. If you have flat-tops and the darts are new, try exchanging them for the S/S. They are low-compression heads with "standard" size valves, and vortec like chamber, so should handle the 9.5:1 compression. Intake ports are 165cc, slightly smaller than vortec, but also slightly larger than your stock heads. Use a dual plane equivelent marine injection system or possibly your old intake with a new or rebuilt marine carb.

Since you already run nothing but premium gas, vortecs might be good with the flat-tops. Bondo seems to be Ok with it. I just have some caution buzzers going off in my head. No pun intended.
 

Bondo

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Re: Dennis Moore's thoughts on heads

Actually,.......... A D-dished Piston is My Choice for the Vortec Heads............

.043 is the Magic # for the Quench,.......

But,.......
I Do Think that the Vortecs will Make the Best Power for a Boat motor,........
Regardless of the Piston Tops.......
AdamB said:
Bondo-O,

That's exactly my thoughts. I read about the heart shapped combustion chambers of the Vortecs, and noticed the heart shapped combustion chambers of the Dart Iron Eagles.... hmmmmmm, coincidence? Maybe the aftermarket noticed the more efficient design and dare we say copied it? At least the way I went I get to keep my ntake manifold. Plus, gettin g my original heads baked and maged and mild port/polished would have cost me the same money. At least now I have new heads with a warranty and stainless valves with hardened seats and...
Exactly,...............
I've watch it Happen,............. Edelbrock was the 1st,........
I bought a set of the Off-Shore copies of the Vortec Truck heads.....
 
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