Deck encapsulation and tabbing question

[Baylinerchuck]

+1 on the yes, with your style boat. I was fortunate enough to have a boat that decapping wasn't necessary. You may want to atleast core sample low now and see what you get. Like WOG stated it's easier to do it now, but if you can't you can't. Unfortunately any moisture left in the remaining wood and stringers could infiltrate the new structure your putting in. It may be possible to only have to do the lower part of the transom if the rest is dry. Then again you may luck out and not have to touch it. Atleast you would know where you stand.

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Oh and as far as the good times on the boat, my family discovered boating on our 16' Bayliner, hence my user name. We too had a 90hp two stroke on it. It was a great boat. I sold it to my brother in law so it's still in the family. I made him promise to always keep it under cover. Like my Chap, I put a lot of work in the bayliner, and I can't think of watching it rot away. We used that little boat just about every weekend in the summer for 6 years. But like you said, kids grow and it was time for an upgrade in size.

Good luck with the restoration, we are here to help you through it if you need it.

 

[jim_s]

I'll have a go at the inside of the transom with a drill tonight. Man, I hope that sucker is still dry!!

On the stringers - from what I've read, it sounds like these should be done one side at a time, to avoid distorting the hull by removing all of the internal structure at one time. People talk about making a cradle for the hull - if the transom is dry (hope, hope, hope), and if I can leave the cap on (thus providing some structure to help keep things in the right shape), is the boat trailer likely to provide sufficient support for removing/replacing the stringers? Its a simple trailer - a bunk rail on each side of the bottom of the hull, and a rubber rest up front. (I assume that the tension on the hold-down straps up front and on the rear eyelets should be released, so the hull isn't under any distortion as the stringers are individually replaced?)

 

[tpenfield]

From pictures of Bayliner Capri 160's, it looks like the outboard well extends about 2-1/2 feet to the rear seat. Not sure you will have much access to the transom. So, if you need to do the transom, you may want to 'de-cap'itate the boat.

 

[jim_s]

Yeah, its a devilishly tightly little spot back there. I've had to replace the bilge pump twice, and also had to install a one-way valve in the bilge drain tube, and each time, its a contortion act worthy of the circus, to get enough of my arms down into that little bilge area, to do any of that stuff. I can likely reach the transom (to take a sample) with a drill and a long bit with an extension on it, but as far as if I had to actually do anything to the transom, it'd be a matter of removing the cap, or hacking off the top of the transom, and working on it from the top. (As noted earlier, its not a double-wall type of transom, where the wood sits between the two walls - its just a large block of wood glassed to the inner side of the transom - looks like a pretty beefy glassing job, but I fear the chance of extracting the transom from the top (ie, such as hacking off the top of the transom) would be impractical or impossible, given the way the transom is attached.)

Was hoping to get after it w/ the drill tonight, but I just got home, and its 9pm, and such projects tend to go worse the later in the day I start them, so I may wait until tomorrow...

 

[Baylinerchuck]

To answer your other question, yes the trailer is sufficient for stabilizing the hull. Add a few more supports between the bunks and it'll be perfect. Do both sides at the same time. It's quicker.

 

[jim_s]

Another question (I really appreciate everyone's help!!) Where the driver and passenger seat pedestals mounted to the floor, there was a black plastic ring with nuts embedded in it, which the seat pedestals bolted in. There were oversized holes drilled through the floor to allow access to the nuts in the ring. None of this was sealed, and I'm sure was a significant source of water entry. (Those areas of the floor under the seats were super squishy!)

I'd like to avoid repeating this design flaw. Two thoughts some to mind:

1. Do the same thing but seal the heck out of the wood, then epoxy the ring to the underside of the floor (to prevent water intrusion around the ring), and 4200 the pedestal bolts when they go back in, to prevent water entry through the nuts in the ring. (Probably also goop a bunch of 4200 in the holes through the wood, as well, to try to keep water out (water will find its way in, I have no doubt...)

2. Laminate a hunk of 3/4" ply to the *top* of the floor, with embedded t-nuts (and with that hunk of ply also sealed), so that there are no holes in the floor itself. If/when that hunk of ply finally rots (for whoever the owner might be at that point...), at least they'd only need to replace that hunk of wood, vs the whole stinking floor. This would, however, complicate laying of floor covering, as there'd be extra material in those spots needed to cover the raised/laminated pedestal blocks. (So, I could see this leading to wrinkles in the carpet in that vicinity, as extra material would be needed to go over those plates, but wouldn't be needed in the area between the seats...)

Other thoughts/suggestions? (I realize this is a long way off, but I'm just trying to think ahead a bit.)

Got home late again tonight, so still haven't drilled into the transom. Tomorrow evening, for sure!!

 

[Baylinerchuck]

I like the idea of not having any holes in the deck. I'm in favor of #2. Especially over a foamed cavity. I'm not sure about the t-nuts though. I was thinking about imbedding the bolts in the piece of wood laminated to the deck. I would simply gelcoat that piece, and run the carpet up to the edge of it. I plan on making mine round.

 

[jim_s]

Baylinerchuck - interesting, I hadn't considered just leaving those plates exposed. I suppose a good coat of polyurethane would coat the epoxy/glass that I plan to use, and as you say, I could just run the floor covering up to the fillet of that plate. I also hear you on just embedding nuts - they might well hold up better than t-nuts, and might not be as inclined to cause compression damage to the plate, either. I'll definitely do some mental and physical playing w/ that idea!

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Baylinerchuck - interesting, I hadn't considered just leaving those plates exposed. I suppose a good coat of polyurethane would coat the epoxy/glass that I plan to use, and as you say, I could just run the floor covering up to the fillet of that plate. I also hear you on just embedding nuts - they might well hold up better than t-nuts, and might not be as inclined to cause compression damage to the plate, either. I'll definitely do some mental and physical playing w/ that idea!

I'm no expert on epoxy, but I think you could just paint over it. I don't think polyurethane will hold up well for you. And I'm going to try encapsulating the bolts.......probably will use stainless carriage bolts

 

[JASinIL2006]

Another question (I really appreciate everyone's help!!) Where the driver and passenger seat pedestals mounted to the floor, there was a black plastic ring with nuts embedded in it, which the seat pedestals bolted in. There were oversized holes drilled through the floor to allow access to the nuts in the ring. None of this was sealed, and I'm sure was a significant source of water entry. (Those areas of the floor under the seats were super squishy!)

I'd like to avoid repeating this design flaw. Two thoughts some to mind:

1. Do the same thing but seal the heck out of the wood, then epoxy the ring to the underside of the floor (to prevent water intrusion around the ring), and 4200 the pedestal bolts when they go back in, to prevent water entry through the nuts in the ring. (Probably also goop a bunch of 4200 in the holes through the wood, as well, to try to keep water out (water will find its way in, I have no doubt...)

2. Laminate a hunk of 3/4" ply to the *top* of the floor, with embedded t-nuts (and with that hunk of ply also sealed), so that there are no holes in the floor itself. If/when that hunk of ply finally rots (for whoever the owner might be at that point...), at least they'd only need to replace that hunk of wood, vs the whole stinking floor. This would, however, complicate laying of floor covering, as there'd be extra material in those spots needed to cover the raised/laminated pedestal blocks. (So, I could see this leading to wrinkles in the carpet in that vicinity, as extra material would be needed to go over those plates, but wouldn't be needed in the area between the seats...)

Other thoughts/suggestions? (I realize this is a long way off, but I'm just trying to think ahead a bit.)

Got home late again tonight, so still haven't drilled into the transom. Tomorrow evening, for sure!!

I did something similar to what you describe in option #2, and I've been pretty happy with it. I also wanted to avoid bolt holes that penetrated the deck, so I fiberglassed plywood bases to the deck. The bases have stainless steel T-nuts that the seat bolts screw into. They are very strong and stable. You can check out some of the helpful ideas and see how they turned out by looking at my resto thread (see the link in my signature below). There are many pics near the end of the thread that show how the bases looked when completed, but the discussions about designing and installing them were concentrated around posts 91-110 and 140-151. Hope you find it helpful.

 

[Woodonglass]

I agree with #2 Deck riders are the way to do it

 

[jim_s]

Good call on adding extra support between the bunks, Baylinerchuck. I'll admit, I was a little dubious that they'd be needed, so I wiggled under the boat on my back, and had my son step around inside on the hull (where I'll be kneeling/standing/etc while removing and replacing the stringers...), and I could feel the bottom of the hull flexing as he walked around and transferred weight from foot to foot while standing on the bare sections of the hull between the stringers. So, I will be bracing that area with some 'auxiliary' bunks in the morning, before I start pulling out the stringers.

Thanks for the great tip!!

 

[jim_s]

Wow, JASinIL2006 - that's a great thread! Just spent over an hour browsing through it. (Nice job, BTW!!) Between your thread, and friscoboater's Sea Ray thread (haven't yet gotten all the way through his), there's a lot of great ideas, techniques and approaches to things - a serious education!!

Kudos to the community for such great involvement, too - its comforting to know that there are so many folks out there willing to lend a hand!

 

[JASinIL2006]

Wow, JASinIL2006 - that's a great thread! Just spent over an hour browsing through it. (Nice job, BTW!!) Between your thread, and friscoboater's Sea Ray thread (haven't yet gotten all the way through his), there's a lot of great ideas, techniques and approaches to things - a serious education!!

Kudos to the community for such great involvement, too - its comforting to know that there are so many folks out there willing to lend a hand!

Thanks and I hope it helps you. I found Friscoboater's project very helpful, too, and advice from WOG and many others really helped make it a doable project. There is so much expertise and generous sharing of experiences here on iboats that even us novices can turn out a decent restoration.

 

[jim_s]

So, back when I thought this was just a deck replacement project , I bought a roll of 4" 15oz biaxial tape, intended for tabbing the floor to the hull side. (I was planning to offset it an inch or so toward each side - one layer offset toward the hull, one layer toward the center/floor, then put a 3rd layer centered on the joint - does that sound reasonable?)

Anyway, I bought a fair bit of it (20 yards...), as I *really* didn't want to run out on the floor... Would that width/weight be sufficient for tabbing the new stringers to the hull, as well (ironically, I likely will have to buy more tape now, length-wise), or should I go with a 6" width for the stringer tabbing? Whether 4" or 6" width, would it be sufficient to do the same type of arrangement on the stringers, as the floor? (ie, offset toward one side (hull), offset toward the other side (toward top of stringer), then a strip centered on the joint)

Additionally, I'd purchased a similar overage of 6oz cloth (50" x 10 yd - the floor is 60" at its widest point, and 68" in length), for encapsulating the top/bottom of the deck. Would several layers of 6oz over the tabbed stringers be sufficient to encapsulate them, or should I go with something thicker? (This seems to be a boat where the wood of the stringer is expected to provide structure, as its 3/4" ply (doubled for several feet in the center section), with a pretty significant thickness of glass at the base, but a fairly thin thickness on the sides and top.)

Thanks!

 

[Baylinerchuck]

I guess this really boils down to what you are using as a resin. I can't remember if you are using epoxy or poly. If epoxy, then I think you should be fine. If it were me, I would want more than a 1" overlap. Either way, tab the center first, then overlap your next piece. 4" tape would be a little slim on your first layer, but I'd want atleast 8" on your second.
If you use poly, you need to use CSM prior to laying cloth, the in between layers. There really is no substitute for 1708 IMO.
I used CSM to encapsulate everything, but I was using poly.

I'm no expert, but this is what I learned right here on this forum. Woodonglass has a great tutorial in his signature line that explains what you need in detail.

 

[jim_s]

Thanks, baylinerchuck - I was a little worried about the width of the 4" tape, too, but was having a hard time finding anything wider w/o a mat backing (I plan to use epoxy - in part because I've already got several gallons of it, in part because it seems to be stronger and more water resistant, and in (large part because it doesn't require CSM)

Based on your response, though, I've looked at some other places, and have been able to track down several sources of 6", 12oz, 45 degree biax tape, with no mat backing. I can't find 8" biax w/o mat anywhere - anyone have any suggestions? (or would 6" suffice for the floor/deck and stringer/hull tabbing?)

FWIW, I cut out the deck, and there is about a 1/2" gap between what was the edge of the floor, and a pretty thick build-up on the hull. I have not ground away all of the build up - just smoothed it out a bit by sanding away some of the top layer. My thought was that with this build-up already there, I wouldn't need to run the tape up the hull a whole lot - that I'd be bonding to the up-the-side-of-the-hull layers that were already there. Is this an acceptable approach, or should I really grind that build-up down a lot (God, please no... ), and create my own build-up?

 

[Baylinerchuck]

I had some areas like that. I didn't grind it off if I didn't need to. It's bonded to the hull, it's solid, it adds structure.......leave it there.
The place I got all my supplies has 8" tape. I'll PM you the contact.

 

[betayv]

Hi there i will follow your project im getting ready to do the same with my 18 foot wellcraft ofshore, How will you attach the new floor/deck to the boat stringer?.