'53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does! EDIT: IT'S ALIVE

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Maybe I'm missing something, but what you've described sounds to me like it's just a gravity flow of fluid in an uncontrolled manner.

forgive my ignorance, but if I configure a hose from an elevated tank directly to the input of the carb, what keeps fuel from simply filling the entire carb & leaking out the front of the throttle body and out the low-idle needle glands by the silencer?

I'm envisioning a lot of gas all over the floor....
 

bwkre

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

As the carb bowl fills, the float will rise and ( if it works ) it will stop the fuel flow. As you use fuel the float will drop and more fuel will enter the bowl until full. Same way the gas lawn mower, weed wacker, snow blower, etc works. None of them have fuel pumps.
 

Daviet

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

The needle and seat in the carb control the fuel flow and the float controls the fuel level in the carb. Basicly you could have a 100 gallon tank of fuel above the engine, but the needle/seat will control the flow into the carb by the float opening and closing the needle/seat in the fuel inlet in the carb. As the engine uses fuel the float will drop in the bowel and allow fuel into the bowel until it is full and then the needle/seat will close and shut off the fuel flow until it needs more fuel. It's kind of like the water float and valve in your toilet, there is always water pressure on the inlet side of the valve, but the water only flows into the tank when the float drops by flushing the toilet.
 

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

that makes sense, and now that you both mention it, I recall clearly that I saw how that worked while I rebuilt the carb.

thanks for the info....
 

1946Zephyr

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I wouldn't change a thing. You've already went through the expense of converting. Converting back to the pressure tank system will just cost you more money and what you just spent already, will be a waste. You did a good thing, by purchasing the fuel that you have. All you need to do, is see that all is plumbed right and everything is working. No sense throwing good money after bad. I would have just plumbed the pulsator line to the other bypass cover. I wouldn't use that nipple on the manifold like others have suggested. After all, all motors I have seen, have the pulsator line coming from the bypass cover. So why not follow suit with the factory? If you get the lines hooked up right, there's no reason why your motors wouldn't run.
 

beverly

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

but if I configure a hose from an elevated tank directly to the input of the carb, what keeps fuel from simply filling the entire carb & leaking out the front of the throttle body and out the low-idle needle glands by the silencer?

I used the fuel hose with the primer bulb and didn't do any modification to the fuel system when I gravity fed the 15 like yours. I did notice fuel leaking out some port next to the slow idle needle (near the chock valve/linkage) but that was after I just re-built the carb for a few minutes but then stopped leaking on its own which was weird. I thought there was something wrong and forgot or lost something.

Even with the check valves on the primer it still worked when gravity feeding it.

If your that worried or can't get the tank up that high then use the primer bulb as a pump and you should keep the engine going as long as you keep pumping well more then 5 sec.

If the fuel is leaking already on the floor when priming the carb. up then that is a real problem which I doubt you have going on.

When I look at an earlier outboard, the pump is directly on the port without a line attached to the vac, blow diaphragm but I see that your has one. So they must of did this before.

What i'm going to do to mine is see if my pump works or not by hooking up something to act as a suck blow effect pump on the fuel pump and to see if it actually work with water pumping at least,... something simple.

Then test the bypass port to see or feel it is actually working the way it should.

For all I know it could just need a stiffer line hooked up to mine/yours and voila m it works.

Your not the only one in the same water with the same motor with the same problem. I know it works by gravity feeding it. I know the pump works as it should.

Question: How big did you drill your port on the bypass plate?

Sorry for my rambling.
 

beverly

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I wouldn't use that nipple on the manifold like others have suggested..
Which nipple would you recommend and why? Sorry for hyjacking
 

HighTrim

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I have a feeling you have it plumbed incorrectly.

Pull the pump off, and test the nipples on it for correct IN, OUT and PULSE as described by nwcove earlier.
 

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I have a feeling you have it plumbed incorrectly.

Pull the pump off, and test the nipples on it for correct IN, OUT and PULSE as described by nwcove earlier.

I'll remove it & check.

I initially got my orientation instructions here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=517749
 

beverly

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I found this while searching around cause I'm going to be heading in your direction if I can't make this Mikuni Fuel Pump work.
2010-05-28_165253_Fuel_pump.jpg
 

HighTrim

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Check the pump to ensure you are plumbed correct. I have seen different combinations on pumps, so I manually test them before plumbing now by sucking/blowing.

I would also get rid of the steel brake line. Too many connections that could be a problem. Just run the lines direct from A to B without connections in between. As the saying goes, keep it simple.

I will assume the proper gaskets are in between your pump and plate, and plate and motor?

Silly question, but the vent is open on your gas tank right?
 

nwcove

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I found this while searching around cause I'm going to be heading in your direction if I can't make this Mikuni Fuel Pump work.
View attachment 169568
if the sketch in the attachment is correct and relevant to your pump, your pulse and fuel "out" lines are reversed. and jmo, id use 3/16 id ridged line for the pulse, it does make more connection points, but in theory is should allow for a snappier pulse.
 

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

I need to slow down, back up & re-evaluate some things.

I haven't had a chance to do a "blow-suck" test on the pump yet, but if that diagram is correct, then I got bad advice & plumbed mine wrong.

That said, the "gravity feed some fuel directly to the carb" test seems to be job #1 to determine if the problem is in the carb / manifold or in the fuel-to-carb delivery system. Most likely I won't be able to do that until Saturday, as I'm booked solid this week.

Once I'm past that hurdle, then the decision to keep the fuel pump or go back to 2-hose can come later.
 

beverly

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Food for Thought

If that diagram is right then your primer bulb would never get hard/stiff and you will end up priming/pumping fuel gas into by-pass plate that shows a lovely piston. Your 15 wouldn't even run for 5 sec. It would start up then die.

Caution
Gravity feeding your 15 in this state will flood the engine and possibly over fill and may make a spill on the ground or hydro lock the one cylinder

Ideas: Might be some ideas floating out there.
Does the primer bulb get stiff?

if it doesn't you can take the PULSE line off the pump and squeeze the primer bulb a little and you should see gas fluid starting to come out the PULSE line as you squeeze the primer then it's hooked up wrong.

if it does get stiff, that would be either the float stop the flow of gas because there sufficient fluid in the carb. or I can't think of it. The cylinder is full..?.?.?:confused:.

The carb should be full of fuel and you should be able to see it in the glass window at the bottom of the carb.

I can see the inlet is on the top for sure on that pump.

Question for the other guys.
Is the hole in the by-pass plate being drilled straight OK or should it being drilled a little wide on the inside / angled.?
$(KGrHqF,!h8E7!R0IZM!BPC6-E7CQQ~~60_14.JPG$(KGrHqJ,!pgE7Bcvh2mHBPC69+4Fyg~~60_57.jpg

The picture is off a 1960's bypass plate on ebay.
I know mine is a bit thicker on the curve that sits inside.

I drilled mine staight

------------------------------
Another note is that diagram they take about is for your pump but on a 35HP motor.
 

Daviet

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

beverly, how will gravity feeding the carb flood the engine? If the needle/seat in the carb is working properly and the float is doing its job, the fuel flow will shut off when the bowel is full of fuel.
 

bwkre

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

beverly, how will gravity feeding the carb flood the engine? If the needle/seat in the carb is working properly and the float is doing its job, the fuel flow will shut off when the bowel is full of fuel.

Daviet, I think beverly assumes a gravity feed with the pump connected in the system and if connected wrong it may flood through the bypass plate? You (we ) are assuming that the gravity feed will be directly to the carb inlet, removing the pump & vac pulse from the test. A direct feed. Although the gravity feed may not support wot it should provide enough fuel for a good run test.
 

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

to be clear, I will feed fuel to the carb, as suggested in posts # 14 & 20. The pump will be removed from the test.
 

Daviet

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Correct, run the fuel line from the tank directly to the fuel inlet on the carb, bypass everything in between.
 

mark in new jersey

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Update...

(sorry for the delay.."Life" got in the way)

So....Saturday I had some free time so I mounted the motor (as above...on a 2x8 spanning the door), disconnected the fuel pump (which was plumbed correctly, BTW) and fed the carb directly from a small fuel container positioned above the engine {aka "motorcycle style"}.

I pulled the rope until it was clear that "something was wrong" because "nothing was happening". Didn't matter how the knobs were set.....this engine didn't so much as cough.

I had fuel dripping out of the front of the carb's throat (where it joins the silencer), so it's not like fuel wasn't getting into the carb...

Still, I reasoned that the carb had to have a problem, so I removed it from the manifold and took it to my bench for a complete exam.

Clogged passages? Nope
Stuck needle? Nope
Linkage issues? Nope
Needle issues? Nope....although the low-speed needle was worn (even though it sealed just fine). I decided to resurface it (maintaining the correct angle) on a ceramic stone.

In short, there's nothing wrong that I can figure.

Last night....a full 24 hours after all of Saturday's testing.....I wondered "maybe the manifold isn't 'sucking' the gas in...." Is that even possible? (these are not exactly high-tech devices)

To test that notion, I wondered what would happen if I placed a piece of tissue over the 1" manifold opening......maybe if I pulled the rope, I could see if the tissue wanted to get sucked in...as an indicator of whether or not the engine is developing vacuum. Like a wind sock, of sorts.

I didn't do it, mind you...I just thought it. Nevertheless, standing right there, with the engine on it's work rack, no carb installed, no fuel in sight...for no reason other than inexplicable instinct....I pulled the rope.

And the sonofabitch turned over! It only ran for about 1 second, obviously, .......but make no mistake: it started & ran.

Clearly there was residual fuel in the manifold (or gremlins, or poltergeists, or ????)....But it ran! I was so shocked, it took me a moment to realize what had just happened! It ran, just as sure as I'm writing this!

questions for today:

1.) does this mean I can rule out "lack of vacuum"? Or is that still a possibility? And if it's a possibility, where would I look for a failure?

2.) sounds like a carb issue, right? But if I have manifold vacuum AND gas in the carb [there's enough in the carb to actually leak out the front], I should get it to at least start, no? Maybe not run well.....but kick over, most assuredly. Right?

I'm missing something dumb. I'm open to any meaningful suggestion...





EDIT: there's something else that might be worthy of knowing: this engine came out of service in the early 70's because the boat on which it was mounted rotted away ('54 14' thompson runabout).

The engine was perfectly functional when removed from service. Yes, it found its way to the mud behind a barn where it languished for 20+ years, but it was never "blown up" never "spum a bearing", never "threw a rod", etc.

There really shouldn't be anything "wrong" with it that a simple rebuild [which I've done] shouldn't fix.
 

beverly

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Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

Re: '53 Super Fastwin......it wants to run. It really does!

The carb. isn't supposed to leak even after gravity feeding it. It should stop filling once full. That's my thought.
 
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