1986 Evinrude 120hp Won't Start Without Starting Fluid

[mav6759]

okay let me ask this question what is the story with the fuel bulb I put a new fuel filter on about 5 minutes ago and I'm pumping the fuel bulb and I can get up to 50 pumps on that bulb and it will not get hard I see gas flowing through the fuel filter but I can get about 50 pumps on that bulb I might can go all the way to a hundred before it even thinks about getting hard I was told that it doesn't get hard then I was told it does get hard so I'm not sure the story on the fuel bulb

 

[racerone]

The fuel bulb has to go hard !-----So there is a leak somewhere.-----There is a fuel pump on the motor with wires going to it.---That is NOT an electric pump.-----There is a device with a red lever and that is the electric primer valve.------The 2 operate differently and there is a need to understand how those 2 items function..----That will make your trouble shooting easier.

 

[jimmbo]

The bulb has two check valves in it. If either are not sealing properly the bulb may never get firm, or be very effective as a pump. You have got to examine every bit of the fuel system, but you have to understand it. pay attention to what Racer is saying

 

[Fed]

Just in case you don't know, with the new pump you fitted you MUST run PRE-MIX fuel.

 

[mav6759]

Wow you guys have been outstanding I cannot tell you how much help you guys have been...but I have been pulling my hair out over this motor... I called in a local mechanic.,he played with the motor for about an hour and came up with pulse tube on the fuel pump was sucking air. he explained to me that the pulse is a vacuum and if it sucks air it will not allow the suction to continue to pump enough fuel to keep the motor running and or will not allow the motor to raise in RPM's.. okay that makes sense to me. so now when we looked at the pulse tube after taking the hose off ...we see a little metal clip on the inside of the pulse tube. I thought this was something caught up in the tube and so did he...after speaking with another mechanic we were told that all evinrude/johnsons have that metal clip on the inside of the pulse tube...but one knows what that metal clip dose or what it is it is...I have 2 question, can the pulse go bad and does anyone know what that metal clip is inside the tube...now he guarantees me this is my problem...I looked at him like he was crazy...but he also said if this wasn't my problem he will give me two to three hours of his time absolutely free.. heck of a deal...the only 5hing he ask is that I put a smaller size hose on the pluse... how could i not take that deal....so if anyone knows what that metal clip is on the inside of the pulse tube that would be great...and if the pulse tubes can go bad...he also mention that Mercury outboards don't have that metal clip on the inside of the pulse tube... only Evinrude/Johnsons

Thanks Mav

 

[racerone]

Are you speaking of a simple device called a pulse limiter?------Pictures always help in diagnosis of these mysteries.---The pulse limiter is a flow fuse and it protects the VRO pump from pressure spikes.---And pulses are a + pressure pulse and a slight negative pulse to operate the pump.

 

[mav6759]

yes I believe that's what it's called everybody calls it by a different name as far as what my symptoms are anyway. Okay I still have my same problem..I had another mechanic look at it.he has no idea. we pool also carburetors and look at the reed valves..they look brand-new nothing broken all of them intact mechanic just walked away scratching his head.and he claims he has 30 years of working on Evinrude I've never seen this something before. I wanted to ask this question...can a sheared flywheel pin cause my
symptoms.when I was trying to start it the last time she was backfiring out of the prop don't know why. Sheared pen knock off my timing to the point where is not sucking fuel into the combustion chamber

 

[interalian]

Easy to test timing TDC: remove #1 plug, stick a pencil in the hole and turn the flywheel until the pencil is topped out. Look at the timing mark and it should be pointing at the 0. You can be more accurate with a piston stop and turn it each way until it stops then split the difference - should be at 0.

 

[mav6759]

I took number one cylinder to top dead center and she lined up perfectly at this point I'm totally fresher ideas to Marine mechanics looked at it and they could not figure it out I don't know where to go from here if anyone have any more ideas please let me know

 

[cfauvel]

as RacerOne stated
#1, the primer bulb HAS to get hard when the motor is off.
if it does not here are the possible problems.
1- the primer bulb is faulty
2 - the primer solenoid has issues with the gasket and/or its red lever allowing fuel to simply bypass the carbs and straight into the crankcase
3 - the floats on the carbs are set wrong allowing fuel to come out of the carb and down into the crankcase.

I personally think you have an issue with the primer bulb, or the connections there (clamps) or connection elsewhere (clamps) that is sucking air rather than fuel.
The primer bulb is cheap , but also easy to test ....remove it. get two pieces of fuel line...two containers....one filled with water or gas, and the other empty....hook up your primer bulb between these two containers (make sure the flow arrow is pointing to the empty container) and squeeze the bulb....the liquid should transfer..
you can also test by having the pickup in the liquid then using a finger to plug the outlet...the bulb should get hard.

 

[racerone]

You lack an understanding of how this motor wiorks.-A sheared flywheel key throws the spark timing out.---The motor will still pull in air and fuel as long as the crankshaft turns.--Test the electric primer valve !!!!

 

[mav6759]

ok at this point these are the item that were done to the motor, New fuel pump, carb's cleaned and re-built, new fuel lines, new fuel bulb, new spark plugs, new pulse tube, new fuel, reeds checked, and the motor still doesn't want to start...the fuel bowls are full of fuel, it's just not getting into the combustion chamber to be burnt..

 

[racerone]

Test the electric primer valve !

 

[cfauvel]

ok at this point these are the item that were done to the motor, New fuel pump, carb's cleaned and re-built, new fuel lines, new fuel bulb, new spark plugs, new pulse tube, new fuel, reeds checked, and the motor still doesn't want to start...the fuel bowls are full of fuel, it's just not getting into the combustion chamber to be burnt..

I assume you have spark, if not then none of the following matters

1 - is the primer bulb getting hard when the motor is off?
2 - how do you know the carb bowls are full of fuel?
3 - have you tested the primer solenoid? How did you test it? here is how I would test it. a) push the key in when the ignition is in the ON position and listen for the click at the solenoid....that lets you know SOMETHING is going on, but not necessarily that is is working right. b) remove the primer solenoid. rig up a hose and primer bulb to the inlet of primer solenoid....with the red lever pointing down, once you pump the primer bulb no gas should come out of the smaller outlets.
c) flip the lever so that is pointing the opposite direction...then fuel should come out of the tiny outlets
d) flip the lever back to original position, prime your test rig, then using a 12v battery momentarily touch the red to + and the black to -...you should hear a click and fuel spitting out the tiny outlets.

IF the expected results are not achieved the best thing to do is replace it....you can replace components inside...but you might mess that up...just buy new.

 

[Silvertip]

Since you have no idea how the primer works, did you by any chance turn the red lever on it so the primer is in the bypass position. This would dump excess fuel into the engine causing a flooded condition. Looking at the plugs it is obvious this engine is running extremely rich which is why I asked about the red lever. If you are not holding the primer bulb vertical when squeezing it it may not pump properly. You do have that new bulb installed with arrow TOWARD THE MOTOR?

 

[mav6759]

I'm very familiar how the primer works my good friend that lives in Atlanta is a marine mechanic and I learned a little bit from him and he's been doing this for 22 years and still can't figure it out. But I do have a question when I rebuild the carbs each kit only came with one new jet...when i first rebuilt the carb's last week, I never replaced that one jet because I was told that I would need a special screwdriver to get the jet out. the jet that the kit comes with is the high-speed jet.. tonight I took the high-speed jet out I did not need a special screwdriver and I removing the high speed jet, I noticed that three of the Jets were not tight these jets are found in the fuel bowl behind the fuel bowl screw. are these jets screws supposed to be loose or adjusted in someway.. or are they supposed to be tight the other two jets the idle air bleed and the intermediate jet in which my book does not tell me about they were tight coming out I cleaned those two jets....could this be where I was sucking air, behind the high speed jet or orphis jet is what they are called..I have not tried to start it yet, it late and beginning to rain here in VA..could those 3 lose high speed jet cause the problems that I am having....

 

[cfauvel]

I'm very familiar how the primer works my good friend that lives in Atlanta is a marine mechanic and I learned a little bit from him and he's been doing this for 22 years and still can't figure it out. But I do have a question when I rebuild the carbs each kit only came with one new jet...when i first rebuilt the carb's last week, I never replaced that one jet because I was told that I would need a special screwdriver to get the jet out. the jet that the kit comes with is the high-speed jet.. tonight I took the high-speed jet out I did not need a special screwdriver and I removing the high speed jet, I noticed that three of the Jets were not tight these jets are found in the fuel bowl behind the fuel bowl screw. are these jets screws supposed to be loose or adjusted in someway.. or are they supposed to be tight the other two jets the idle air bleed and the intermediate jet in which my book does not tell me about they were tight coming out I cleaned those two jets....could this be where I was sucking air, behind the high speed jet or orphis jet is what they are called..I have not tried to start it yet, it late and beginning to rain here in VA..could those 3 lose high speed jet cause the problems that I am having....

short answer NO loose hi-speed jets are not going to stop you from starting the motor. Hell I think you could leave them out completely if not goosing the throttle.

they are not adjustable you turn them in until they are snug...no need to crank them down.

Your task tomorrow, barring rain...is to test the primer solenoid as directed.

If the primer solenoid is not working properly it will be VERY hard to start the motor as you need the gas from the primer circuit to get the combustion happening to generate enough vacuum to draw fuel from the carbs into the crankcase....(at least that's my belief)

question: when you rebuilt the carbs...did the bowls have a nylon washer under the float seat? did you put nylon washers under the seat?

I believe the general rule is that if the bowl has a raised lip for the seat the nylon washer IS NOT used. If your bowl was NOT supposed to use nylon washer and you used them THEN adjusted float level normally...the level will NOT be right...(I've done that)...so you'l have to recheck that too...

but please answer the questions below

I assume you have spark, if not then none of the following matters

1 - is the primer bulb getting hard when the motor is off?
2 - how do you know the carb bowls are full of fuel?
3 - have you tested the primer solenoid? How did you test it?

 

[mav6759]

No Title

The primer bulb is getting hard...The carb bowls are getting fuel because i dumped the bowls several times and once i pump the bulb they keep filling up...as far as the primer solenoid, when i turn the key to the start position and push in the key I can here the primer solenoid click...so i;m assuming its working...As far as the nylon washer I didn't get one in the kit...here is a copy of what i received in the kit...As far as the primer solenoid don't know if this is true or not, but i was told if you here the primer solenoid click its working..Is it possible for the primer solenoid to click and still be bad..

 

[cfauvel]

The primer bulb is getting hard...The carb bowls are getting fuel because i dumped the bowls several times and once i pump the bulb they keep filling up...as far as the primer solenoid, when i turn the key to the start position and push in the key I can here the primer solenoid click...so i;m assuming its working...As far as the nylon washer I didn't get one in the kit...here is a copy of what i received in the kit...As far as the primer solenoid don't know if this is true or not, but i was told if you here the primer solenoid click its working..Is it possible for the primer solenoid to click and still be bad..

ok it's good that the primer bulb gets hard.

yes the click is good, but not 100% sure that it is working, just that the coil inside is creating magnetic field and pulling the plunger to the magnetic field....there STILL could be something wrong with the internal valve and seat.

I think I found a way to at least test the solenoid without removing it.Pump the primer bulb until it is hard.. turn the key to the ON position. Push the key in to prime
the system, hold the key down for an unusual 20-30 seconds....that should dump an excessive amount of fuel, depressurizing the fuel circuit....The primer bulb should be soft again. If it is NOT then the primer solenoid is bad. For shits and giggles go ahead and try to start the motor with the unusual amount of fuel in the crank case.


BTW that brass thing in the kit is the seat not a hi-speed jet...it would not fit in the hi-speed jet position....not sure where that small o-ring goes.

 

[CaptnKingfisher]

BTW that brass thing in the kit is the seat not a hi-speed jet...it would not fit in the hi-speed jet position....not sure where that small o-ring goes.

+1 on that.. the brass thing in your kit is called a seat assembly. The seat assembly is the end of the fuel line where fuel is waiting to enter the chamber. When the chamber is full, the rubber tipped needle is pressed into the seat preventing fuel from overflowing into the chamber. Carb kits do not come with new high speed jets. Take em out, clean em, and reinstall. Your jets are underneath screws and you need the proper tool to remove them. I dont recall the part number on the tool.. I just use a briggs and stratton screwdriver-jet 19061 (google that and you'll find the tool I have). Like said before though, your high speed jets wont affect your startup.

I dont have anything else to add. These guys are giving you good tips and they know more than I do. I would go back to that mechanic that owes you 3 hours of his time and have him test your primer selenoid / electric primer valves. Idk if Id trust that guy too much though if he claims all that experience but didnt know about johnson / evinrudes metal clip..