1983 Invader Floor Repair Support Needed - Take 2

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Due to some technical problems with my initial topic thread titled "1983 Invader Floor Repair Support Needed" and no evidence to suggest that the problems will be fixed anytime soon, I have decided to just start this new thread. BTW, the technical problems involved an "internal server error" and an "empty response" error. Looks like others have been experiencing similar problems recently and the MODS are aware of it - but no estimate in terms of a solution.

So, a quick update. I have removed the deck, the stringers and bulkheads and am preparing to get into the grinding work. I AM SO EXCITED!! Anyway, I will get some pics posted of the current state, so stay tuned. I also have posted a series of videos documenting my progress: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNfvN-HYTGB0AlkTszgdXGg.

I do have a question re: resin for the deck, stringers and bulkheads. It looks like the best option is PR (polyester resin) as the cost is half that of epoxy - and PR sets up a little faster, so its a bit easier to deal with. Any disagreement there? And what about vinylester? Any experience/opinion about this product?
 

Rickmerrill

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
686
No disagreement on using poly. Vinylester, kind of polyester on steroids, less permeable and somewhat stronger but like epoxy, at a cost. I watched your new videos, good work. You're making fine progress given the limited time you have. On the foamed area you seem to imply water may have gotten in from above and gotten trapped. I submit that water probably got into the bulkheads somewhere around the drain area and wicked up and out from there, possibly even into the attached stringers. However it got wet in there you'll be hard pressed to find a way to get water out of there that doesn't also let water get into it as well. Many have pondered this question. Oops did come up with a shrink wrapped idea you may want to look into but most of us settle on getting everything sealed up good. Hopefully that should be a 20-30 year fix.
 

Rickmerrill

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
686
You're very welcome. Hey were you aware in you video how low your voice dropped when you were talking about if you had to remove the engine? It made me laugh! Hopefully you won't have to (but if you do it's really not difficult). I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,924
Poly all the way. Vinylester if you want but Poly will work just fine. On the flap just cut if off and lay in a couple of layers of 1708 and call it good as long as the rest of the area is adhered well. Looks as if the rest of your work is progressing very well!!! You've been "AT IT"!!!:D:hail::clap2::nod:
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Poly resin is what your boat is made out of for competitive manufacturing cost reasons.

If you don't mind working with noxious and flammable fumes, and wearing a respirator... poly resin will save you some money.

Epoxy resin doesn't have noxious fumes and isn't flammable so I consider it easier to work with.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,924
This might go a LONG way to help alleviate some misconceptions about Resin Health issues... This comes from a Long Time Resin Industry Technical Instructor, well respected in his field and is called upon to testify in Court proceedings concerning Resin Related Health issues..

"When I developed & taught a course in advanced composites manufacturing last year, the topic of material and workplace hazards related to the material being used was (and is) a HUGE issue. A great deal of research was done to ensure that the students were properly equipped and trained in safety procedures.

Let's make sure that we get the misconceptions about laminates and resins out of the way here. The styrene in polyester and vinylester resins stinks to some (most around this forum) but isn't terribly dangerous to the health of the casual user. One would have to subject themselves to some pretty horrific working conditions for it to have deleterious health effects after only a short exposure. You can detect the odor of styrene at a concentration of 0.2 parts per million in the atmosphere; maximum long-term exposure (8 hrs per day for 20 years) limit is currently legislated at 50 parts per million, and toxic short-term exposure is 5400 parts per million over a 4-hour exposure. So you would pretty much have to seal youself up in a tank and paint the walls with resin for half a day to hurt youself. If you protect exposed skin (wear rubber gloves & long sleeves) and keep your shop reasonably ventilated, you will be fine.

Epoxy resins are a whole different ballgame. The odor is much less pronounced than ester-based resins, but the chemistry is more bothersome to a larger percentage of the population than are poly- and vinylester resins. Fortunately, most don't become sensitized to epoxy resins through atmospheric contact, but through physical contact. Always wear protective clothing and rubber gloves when working with epoxies. Exposure is cumulative, so if you don't take precautions, one day you walk into the shop and suddenly develop a rash, after only a few minutes of physical contact with the stuff per day. Play safe and you can play for a long time.

The real nasties in using resins are the solvents that we use to prepare for, and clean up after, using resins. Acetone is particularly nasty - it is easily absorbed through the skin and mucus membranes either through direct contact or atmospherically. Once in your body, it gets deposited in the liver where it slowly eats away the living cells. After a few years of regularly washing resin off your hands and arms with acetone your doctor tells you to cut back on your drinking because you have the beginnings of cirrosis of the liver, even though you are a teetotaler. Always use solvents in a well-ventilated area, always use rubber gloves when working with the stuff, and always keep solvents covered & sealed. Don't leave that pan of acetone laying open on the bench because you will be using it again in a few minutes; cover it. Put acetone rags temporarily in covered containers and take them outside of your work area when finished. (Be careful not to keep rags in closed containers long-term, though; spontaneous combustion of a bucket full of rags in your shop could ruin your whole day as well as your boat, your shop, your house, etc.) Plastic ice cream containers with snap-on lids are good for shop use of acetone. If you have to use solvents in an enclosed space, such as cleaning the interior of a hull compartment prior to paint, make sure that you have forced ventilation in & out, or better yet, use a self-contained breathing apparatus.

With any of the FRP (Fibre-Reinforced Plastic) laminates, sanding presents some problems. Surprisingly, it is not the resins that hurt you (the cured resin is pretty benign chemically, so your body treats it like any other ingested dust and expels it through mucus discharge), but the reinforcing materials that are the bad guys. As you sand, you break off tiny particles of the fibres, which are sharp and jagged and able to adhere to the lining of your airways and lungs. At best this causes irritation (a hacking cough that won't go away); at worst, some of the fibres used in reinforcements are cancer-causing (silicosis and other forms of lung cancer). Always use a quality dust mask that fits properly. Those of us with face fur need to be particularly careful to get a type of dust mask that has a proper seal between mask and face. I have a longish full beard, so I find that the paper type masks won't fit and I need a dual-cannister rubber mask type.

Hope this helps..."


Having posted this does not mean I've changed my advice about always wearing the best respirator you can afford (I recommend a Full Face one). You only get one set of lungs. I've lost two good friends to emphesema! But My friend that's done the research knows all about both types of resins and he assures me that Epoxy causes much more problems with users than does Poly. BOTH are nasty and should ALWAYS be handled with care!!!
 
Last edited:

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Very helpful information - thank you. Will wear all the protective gear regardless of materials used - and will likely still use poly.
 

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
I live in Olympia, WA. Any info re: where to obtain Aruaco, CSM..6 oz. cloth...17 oz. cloth..6" biaxial cloth , cabosil..chopped glass..and the PR?
 

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Ok Rickmerrill - you're dead on….I would rather not pull the engine. But, let's just say that becomes my reality. Can you point me to a solid resource that will walk me through the appropriate steps? I believe I would need to find a place to rent a hoist that would be tall enough to get to this engine given the boat is still on the trailer.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,924
I live in Olympia, WA. Any info re: where to obtain Aruaco, CSM..6 oz. cloth...17 oz. cloth..6" biaxial cloth , cabosil..chopped glass..and the PR?


Since you're in Washington State, I'd recommend you contact these guys...http://shop.fiberglasssupply.com/ They're in Burlington and should have everything you need. You should be able to save a lot on shipping, or you could drive the 2 1/2 hours down there and pick it up yourself depending on the cost factor. Their site is a bit hard to navigate but they have all the stuff you'll need to build your boat.

If you have any contacts in the Car Towing business they can make short work of removing your motor. You might call one and see what they'd charge for a service call and tell them what you have in mind. Might be cheaper than renting or building a lift. Heck of a lot more convenient. Just make sure you have a place to put it all prepared. All thats involved really is to build a motor stand and an outdrive stand and then unbolt everything. They make an alignment tool to aid in aligning the outdrive and the motor on the "Go-back" I'm NOT a I/O expert but there are plenty of em here on the forum and they'll be along when the time comes to help you get her re-installed
 

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Thank you, Wood. Actually traveling up to Bellingham tomorrow so will be passing through Burlington. Maybe I'll stop in. I'm thinking I should bring an estimate of the square footage of my deck and then stringer/bulkhead measurement estimates as well so a determination can be made re: how much of each type of material I will likely need. Sound good?
 

JASinIL2006

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
5,548
I live in Olympia, WA. Any info re: where to obtain Aruaco, CSM..6 oz. cloth...17 oz. cloth..6" biaxial cloth , cabosil..chopped glass..and the PR?

In our area, big home centers carry Arauco plywood. I can get it at Home Depot.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,924
This downloadable link should help with your materials list...https://mega.co.nz/#!bFA2wayI!EelJY338lRO7fUnD983ggABTpVsXBySS71Y28MHUEzM

Try going to a reputable Lumber Yard and asking for Underlayment Flooring Plywood. It usually is made from Fir and Has 100% waterproof glue in the lams and very few voids. They should also be able to order MDO or possibly the Aruaco Ply. The Northwest sometimes has a problem with stocking Aruaco Brands.
 

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Ok…..do I need to download/install the MEGA app in order to actually save the file? I can download it, but I can't seem to be able to save it.
 

Rickmerrill

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
686
Well now that I ran my mouth off and kept saying how easy it is I can't find "a solid resource that will walk you through all appropriate steps" for the AQ125A. I did find a lot of people that have done it (apparently it's so easy they don't go into details), a write up on how to do it, some "after the fact pictures" and the workshop manuals for the engine and outdrive. I believe you have the 270 Volvo Penta outdrive.

Since you don't have any front engine mounts they call this design cantilevered and because of this it is very dependent on a solid transom. It also means you need to support the weight of the engine before you loosen the bolt connecting it to the transom.

If we can't piece all of this info together hopefully someone who has done it will see this and help out. It looks like Dons S. who is usually in the Volvo Penta I/O & Inboard Gas Engines & Outdrives forum knows about the Volvos so you can always ask there.

Here is a short description of how to remove the engine. http://www.justanswer.com/boat/2piqb...-outdrive.html

Here is a guy on iboats that removed his and has some pictures that show what it looks like after you remove everything and a few pictures of the sterndrive as he's putting it back on. http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat-...a-aq125a-resto

The Workshop manuals are online but they don't quite tell exactly how to remove the engine from the transom.

Workshop Manual Aquamatic270 http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...-270-out-drive See diagram 58 "mounting collar" at the back of the book.

Workshop Manual Engine Unit AQ125A,B http://boatinfo.no/lib/volvo/manuals/aq125_145_ab.html#/0

So, I know this doesn't answer your question or even make it seem easy but once you know what to do it will only take a day or two to complete. I'm still looking for more info but I've crossed some more fingers for good luck!
 
Last edited:

Rickmerrill

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
686
Hey pita boat I just downloaded wog's doc. Clicked download, a small window popped up at the bottom of my screen to open or save file, I actually did a save as. That was with windows 7.
 

PitaBoat22

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
148
Thanks RM. I'm using a Mac. I can download, click save, give the file a name and a destination, but the file doesn't actually end up being saved. Will you email it to me if I get my email address to you? And thank you for the resources re: engine removal. There is absolutely no play in the stern when I pull up on the stern drive, but I'm still going to take several more core samples of the transom at Wood's recommendation. Probably won't be until next weekend as this weekend will be a "play" weekend.

Wood - I reached out to the fiberglass supplier in Burlington yesterday morning and have yet to hear back. Website says to give them 12-24 hours to respond, so still within that window. Hope to be able to stop in there either on my way to Bellingham today or on my way back on Sunday.
 

GA_Boater

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
49,038
Pita - Post up in the VP forum, the guys know their stuff. Unfortunately, Don S won't be able to help due to his passing last summer. RIP Don.
 
Top