1963 75hp Cooling Anomaly - RESOLVED

interalian

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Jul 23, 2009
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Do you have any straight-on shots of the cylinders that might show where the water comes in? The later ones have a wide oval port under the lower cylinder on each bank that is supplied from the cavity between the crankcase and exhaust chest area. I suspect the basic flow is similar.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
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Unfortunately, my pics all seem to be at an angle like the pic below. I may get to my parts motor this weekend and I can try to figure it out, but I suspect that you are correct that the water flow here is very similar to the crossflow.

​Again, I'm just trying to fully understand the flow in order to come up with some ideas of why my temps are wonky.

Cylinders.jpg
 

yorab

Ensign
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Messages
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I doubt this has anything to do with my particular problem since I'm not getting spittle out the exhaust relief port at any engine temperature, but could this be related to cylinder displacement or plugs? I'm running the J4C or the J6C (I'll confirm this weekend). I also had all cylinders bored .040 over with appropriate OS pistons and rings during my rebuild.
 

Chinewalker

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Aug 19, 2001
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8,902
I doubt this has anything to do with my particular problem since I'm not getting spittle out the exhaust relief port at any engine temperature, but could this be related to cylinder displacement or plugs? I'm running the J4C or the J6C (I'll confirm this weekend). I also had all cylinders bored .040 over with appropriate OS pistons and rings during my rebuild.

No, and no.

Probably not your issue, but I recently worked on a '63 Johnson V75 and it was running warm, too. Turns out the uptake tube was broken, right where it enters the guide up in the exhaust housing. I was puzzled when I pulled the unit and the tube came out with it, only to see the top of the tube with a jagged edge, well worn. I managed to save it without having to completely tear down the engine by using a copper plumbing coupler, with sealant on bolt sides. There was JUST enough room in the guide area in the housing for it to slip through with the added diameter of the coupling.
 

yorab

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Messages
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Yeah, I had to cut a tube and lengthen the other when I did my rebuild because I connected them wrong at the adapter plate! I was so relieved when I realized that a pipecutter fits up into that cavity and I was also able to use a push connector. Saved me a ton of work to pull the powerhead, especially since I was heading out of the country in a few days at that time.

​Most likely not my problem because I'm getting strong flow at the top of the SB bank.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
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I can't help but keep coming back to the idea that the t-stat valve isn't opening in operation although it seems to work fine when benchtesting.

​I'm going way out on a limb here, but were there different t-stat housings made that could be different? I installed a NOS housing and it had an "E" embossed in the top. My original housing did not. Perhaps--and this is a wild guess--the vernatherm seat is deeper down in the housing ; therefore, even though the vernatherm piston is extending by about 1/8 inch, that 1/8 inch isn't quite enough to unseat the valve.
 

yorab

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Or along those lines, perhaps the piston-accommodating hole in the bottom of the valve is too deep, and this is not allowing the valve to unseat even though the piston is extending fully and properly.
 

F_R

Supreme Mariner
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Jul 7, 2006
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I don't have an answer to all the questions, except yes that is the bypass groove in the thermostat valve.
 

yorab

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Oy. I learned a lot this weekend but perhaps not what I wanted. I'll post info today as I get time.

​I looked at the vernatherms and one piston was slightly longer than the other but even then, it was certainly long enough to unseat the valve at the proper temperature as in the second pic below (the vernatherm just came from a hot water bath):

Pistons.jpg

Hot Vernatherm and Valve.jpg


​I'm nearly certain that the innards are working correctly, but the water presented isn't hot enough. I decided to see if I was getting good flow from the port cylinder bank. I know that the flow is good at the SB bank since I opened the water choke circuit previously. This time, I disconnected the port bank-to-tstat housing hose and added a section to make a tell tale. I started the motor for a few seconds and saw that the flow was quite strong.

T-Stat Bypass.jpg

TellTale.jpg

​The VIDEO is here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8xDd3fDFA6xbnA4amtKVzVubXM
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
958
So I believe that a sufficient amount of water is flowing through the engine and that the t-stat is working as designed. This is puzzling. So then I decided to keep running some temperature tests. Here is a video of what I've been seeing:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8xDd3fDFA6xNVpINlBhZmIwRGM

​The top port cylinder was running around 205-210 degrees while the top SB cylinder was running around 170 degrees. I believe that the IR thermometer is accurate, but the battery was almost dead, so it took a few seconds between readings. That was the reason for the pauses at certain points during the testing.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
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The SB side was much, much too cool. I decided to inspect the plugs on that side. Ouch:

Bottom Plug.jpg

Top Plug.jpg

Yes, that's water on the plugs.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
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I didn't have my compression gauge with me, so I pulled the head to take a look. Of course water was in the cylinders:

SB Bank.jpg
 

yorab

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I expected an issue with the head gasket, but I saw no visual signs. The gasket looks brand new. I also used no sealer on it. During my rebuild, I torqued the heads down to the proper value (I believe 192 in-lbs) in steps and in the suggested pattern to reduce the chance of warping. I also re-torqued after the initial heating-cooling cycles during break-in. For the rebuild, I also sent the block and heads out to a reputable shop for machining. It's possible that the mating surfaces are not flat, but I doubt that.

Head Gasket.jpg

SB Head.jpg
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
958
Based on all of this, here is what I am now thinking:

​Perhaps the exhaust gasket was leaking on the SB side and keeping the cylinders cooler than they would otherwise run. Even though the port side was very hot, the cooler SB water temps mixed with the port water at the t-stat. When the water mixed there, the resulting water temp was slightly below 143 degrees and the t-stat valve never opened.

​It seems that the problem became worse only lately. I did check the plugs a few weeks ago and there was no water present.

​Does this seem reasonable?
 

yorab

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Jul 6, 2002
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...and I didn't get time to open up the exhaust cover plate to inspect, but I think that the water intrusion is coming from there. I'm not convinced that the head gasket has any issues, but I'm open to differing opinions.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
958
Well, this was a pain. After doing a ton of research, getting advice from all of you, going back through my parts engine to figure out exactly how the water flows, and grasping at straws, I've finally figured out what is going on.

​Based upon the symptoms, there were only so many reasonable possibilities of what could be happening. Once those reasonable possibilities were ruled out, I began to think about very rare, but theoretically possible, circumstances such as the t-stat housing having a mid-year design change and not being correct for my application. In the end, that wasn't a problem.

​I tried to run a compression test to rule out a head gasket leak or a cracked cylinder, but I had a ton of trouble with the gauge not sealing properly. I eventually gave up on that. I'll comment on that in another thread because that seems to indicate another problem altogether. However, I really didn't think that the gaskets were an issue because I rebuilt this engine on a clean benchtop, using a proper torque wrench and following the proper procedures, including re-torqueing. Also, all parts were NOS or freshly machined and cleaned. This was my first rebuild, so it is possible that I messed up something with the gaskets, but I think that chances of that are quite small.

​But even though I thought that the exhaust gaskets were ok, I needed to get in there to be sure. After opening it up, it was clear that the gaskets were fine. Also, the inner exhaust plate was clean and flat (it was NOS). However, something immediately jumped out at me. I love trivia (big fan of Jeopardy and Cash Cab) so I'll leave a picture trivia question for you: do you see what's wrong? I'm guessing that this is one of those theoretically possible, but very rare situations.

Exhaust Area.jpg
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
958
And Joe, I grounded the temp overheat sensor. It is working. Probably hasn't activated for me recently since it is mounted in the cooler SB head.
 

yorab

Ensign
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Jul 6, 2002
Messages
958
Yep, the cylinder plug is missing (part #306044). With that plug missing from that 7/16 hole, a lot of water could flow from the water bypass area directly into the exhaust chamber and into the combustion chamber through the exhaust ports. The plug was in place when I assembled the powerhead after the block came back from the shop as seen in post #17 above. My local marina has that plug in stock so I'll replace it this weekend and see if that fixes the hot condition.

​Is there a special technique or tool used for installing that particular plug?

Crankcase_Cylinder Exploded.jpg

C and C List.jpg
 
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