Permission to board, please

Howdy,

So, I'm a newbie in every sense. Just bought my first boat (second, but I don't think my 14' aluminum w/ 8hp Evinrude counts on this page!).

Wanted to introduce myself (and my problems). I think I have most of them figured, but there is a wealth of experience here that I can benefit from and hopefully contribute to someday!

Boat ran good ... for a few minutes. Got right up on plane, around 40 mph. Then, started blowing some black smoke from the engine compartment ... I was hoping it was oil burning off from the recent change, but it smelled more like rubber? After I fix the following, I'll be able to start it up again and look into this little issue.

When I slowed down (maybe too fast?), to check out the smoke, it was taking on some water, but not too bad. Puzzled, I hesitantly throttled up again, boat ran fine, but smoke continued.

Slowed down again (probably too fast again, my wake came up on me a bit), and stopped. When I stopped it was really taking on some water. I figure this has to be the bellows (?), the plug was in and the hull appears in great shape. Ordered a transom seal kit and bellows tool, I'll fix these this week. I hope I didn't swamp a missing exhaust flap?

Upon finding too much water in the bilge, I wanted to beeline for the dock and the darn thing suddenly would not go over about 2000 rpm in gear. It'll rev just fine in Neutral, no power in gear. I take it the ignition coil is a good place to start -- ordered that.

So, I'm super stoked to be a boat owner and to have found this great community ... and looking forward to my first transom seal job and associated gear oil change, coil chagne, and my second trip out on the lake!

Re: Permission to board, please

DonoGrosso said:

Howdy,

So, I'm a newbie in every sense. Just bought my first boat (second, but I don't think my 14' aluminum w/ 8hp Evinrude counts on this page!).

Wanted to introduce myself (and my problems). I think I have most of them figured, but there is a wealth of experience here that I can benefit from and hopefully contribute to someday!

Boat ran good ... for a few minutes. Got right up on plane, around 40 mph. Then, started blowing some black smoke from the engine compartment ... I was hoping it was oil burning off from the recent change, but it smelled more like rubber? After I fix the following, I'll be able to start it up again and look into this little issue.

When I slowed down (maybe too fast?), to check out the smoke, it was taking on some water, but not too bad. Puzzled, I hesitantly throttled up again, boat ran fine, but smoke continued.

Slowed down again (probably too fast again, my wake came up on me a bit), and stopped. When I stopped it was really taking on some water. I figure this has to be the bellows (?), the plug was in and the hull appears in great shape. Ordered a transom seal kit and bellows tool, I'll fix these this week. I hope I didn't swamp a missing exhaust flap?

Upon finding too much water in the bilge, I wanted to beeline for the dock and the darn thing suddenly would not go over about 2000 rpm in gear. It'll rev just fine in Neutral, no power in gear. I take it the ignition coil is a good place to start -- ordered that.

So, I'm super stoked to be a boat owner and to have found this great community ... and looking forward to my first transom seal job and associated gear oil change, coil chagne, and my second trip out on the lake!

Click to expand...

Welcome to Iboats.

First question,
What did your boats temp gauge say when all this was happening?

Burning rubber and taking on water sounds like one of the rubber hoses from the manifold risers to the exhaust tubes for the drive was burning up. It's possible other hoses could be burning up too. This could all be caused by a lack of cooling water.
Have you, or has someone changed the impeller in the outdrive, let's say with-in the past year? It is essential that the impeller in the drive is in good working order to supply your engine with enough water to keep everything cool. If the impeller has not been changed, it needs to be. It is considered a maintenance item that should be changed annually.

Other possibilities which would prevent cooling water flow is clogged up exhaust risers/manifolds, bad t-stat, hoses restricted with foreign objects, etc.
Sounds like you will need to tare into your cooling and exhaust system, and check everything over. Replace the burnt rubber hoses. Inspect your manifolds/risers, and replace them if they are in rough shape.

Ordering the bellows was probably a good idea because it most likely needs them. With the drive removed, it would be a great time to inspect your U-joints and gimbal bearing. You should also check your alignment (engine to drive) with an alignment tool to make sure everything is still lined up.

As far as buying the coil.... well... you probably just bought your self an un-needed part. Coils rarely fail half way (engine runs, but not good). Consider the circumstances especially if your engine was overheating. That would certainly put a damper on the engine running well.

Other things to consider;
I hate to be a wet blanket but, the age of the boat would make me wonder how sound the rest of it is? Did you or someone check out the transom, deck, and stringers for rot?

A Mercruiser with a Ford is not considered a modern day couple.

Gunning it, going for it, giving it to her, and "throttling up", is not recommended when water is pouring in and black smoke is pouring out.

Re: Permission to board, please

Thanks for the feedback! The temp gauge started to climb (up to maybe 190-200) by the time I bailed for shore. It was steady at 175 before the water came in. It is sounding like, unfortunately, you're on the money. I was told the impeller was changed, but who knows. That was supposedly last year anyway. So, among a new impeller, the boat needs at least some hoses, and the rest of the exhaust inspected. The gimbal bearing seemed ok to me according to the manual (no play, gritty spots, etc). No, I did not check for rot thoroughly ... the bilge area seemed in good condition, the transom is visibly fine and solid, floor is solid, but no thorough check .
The motor did run fine on the hose, ran it up to op temp. But I'm guessing you won't burn up a hose unless under load with higher egt's. Bummer. Exhaust system here we go! I'll cross my fingers it is just the hose.

p.s. the motor looks quite new or rebuilt or someone was very patient with the spray paint. Everything looks nice ... from the outside :0

p.p.s. dernit, I'm a chevy guy anyway! but this boat just seemed like a good deal (hopefully not too good!) and I told myself a 302 was a good plant. Shows my marine ignorance.

Thanks again RogersJetBoat454

Re: Permission to board, please

DonoGrosso said:

p.p.s. dernit, I'm a chevy guy anyway! but this boat just seemed like a good deal (hopefully not too good!) and I told myself a 302 was a good plant. Shows my marine ignorance.

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with the Ford power plant other than the fact it's a 30 year old couple, and Merc stopped using them right around the time your boat was made. Just means hunting down parts specific parts that allow your engine to work with the drive may be difficult.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what may be going on.

Re: Permission to board, please

I hope so. I'm really hoping the impeller was bad and I just burned up a hose. Further hoping the loss of power under load was due to trying to push water out of the exhaust. Everything under the hood looks really new, hoses and clamps look brand new, all wires and terminals look brand new, etc. I hope I just ran without an impeller and didn't do damage beyond the burned up hose. The smoke did appear to be coming from the rear of the engine where the big exhaust hoses are.

I expect the impeller can come apart and get sucked into the hoses and water pump? I guess the sequence is to replace the impeller and get the outdrive back on, aligned, with new bellows. Then can I run it on the garden hose to find the blown/burned hoses? And if it is spitting water out and not overheating, can I assume the cooling system and exhaust are clear? OR, do I need to tear apart the entire cooling and exhaust system to be sure before I start it again ? Any pointers are much appreciated -- I'll be getting parts this week and tearing into it this weekend.

Re: Permission to board, please

DonoGrosso said:

I hope so. I'm really hoping the impeller was bad and I just burned up a hose. Further hoping the loss of power under load was due to trying to push water out of the exhaust. Everything under the hood looks really new, hoses and clamps look brand new, all wires and terminals look brand new, etc. I hope I just ran without an impeller and didn't do damage beyond the burned up hose. The smoke did appear to be coming from the rear of the engine where the big exhaust hoses are.

I expect the impeller can come apart and get sucked into the hoses and water pump? I guess the sequence is to replace the impeller and get the outdrive back on, aligned, with new bellows. Then can I run it on the garden hose to find the blown/burned hoses? And if it is spitting water out and not overheating, can I assume the cooling system and exhaust are clear? OR, do I need to tear apart the entire cooling and exhaust system to be sure before I start it again ? Any pointers are much appreciated -- I'll be getting parts this week and tearing into it this weekend.

Click to expand...

If the impeller came apart with no signs of the pieces of it in the L/U you will need to go on a hunt for the broken pieces. Common locations are oil coolers, t-stat housings, smaller hoses, maybe the circulator pump, and possibly the manifolds/risers.

If it were mine, I would be pulling the risers, and checking the rubbers from the risers to the exhaust tube. Not sure if your model has the exhaust flappers or not, but if you do, I believe they are rubber too and could be burnt up. Should be able to tell when you pull the risers. The flappers stop the water from back flowing up the exhaust when you stop suddenly, have a wake hit the back of the boat, or reverse hard.

Re: Permission to board, please

Great! Thanks a bunch RogersJetBoat454! If you or someone else has just a bit more patience left for me, can you help me identify those rubber hoses (approx. 4 inches diameter) that go from the riser to the transom area? Are they just called "molded rubber hose" or do they have a special name? I will try to get my parts locally and bring in the old to get the new, but I'm trying to check prices, and make a list, etc -- and I want to make sure I am not sold a part that looks right but ain't. It just seems like regular hose won't hold up to exhaust ... maybe I'm exposing too much ignorance

Thanks again.

Re: Permission to board, please

Here's some good reading for you.

It's a fairly large file, but well worth the download time:
http://www.4shared.com/document/M35B2RL4/Service_Manual_03.html

Re: Permission to board, please

DonoGrosso said:

Great! Thanks a bunch RogersJetBoat454! If you or someone else has just a bit more patience left for me, can you help me identify those rubber hoses (approx. 4 inches diameter) that go from the riser to the transom area? Are they just called "molded rubber hose" or do they have a special name? I will try to get my parts locally and bring in the old to get the new, but I'm trying to check prices, and make a list, etc -- and I want to make sure I am not sold a part that looks right but ain't. It just seems like regular hose won't hold up to exhaust ... maybe I'm exposing too much ignorance

Thanks again.

Click to expand...

It is special hose, called either marine exhaust hose, or wet exhaust hose. Typically has a high temp silicone liner built in.

Any marina, marine store, or NAPA (which carries marine parts, and would probably be the cheapest option) should be able to give you replacements.

Iboats also carries them; http://www.iboats.com/Shields-Marin...9408421--**********.499794600--view_id.341113

Re: Permission to board, please

Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1 said:

Here's some good reading for you.

It's a fairly large file, but well worth the download time:
http://www.4shared.com/document/M35B2RL4/Service_Manual_03.html

Click to expand...

Super! Thanks. This is loaded with info, but it's not specific to my Ford 302 based plant ... is ther one that is? Otherwise, it looks like much of this manual will apply. I apologize if this is all in a FAQ or sticky thread somewhere.

Re: Permission to board, please

RogersJetboat454 said:

It is special hose, called either marine exhaust hose, or wet exhaust hose. Typically has a high temp silicone liner built in.

Any marina, marine store, or NAPA (which carries marine parts, and would probably be the cheapest option) should be able to give you replacements.

Iboats also carries them; http://www.iboats.com/Shields-Marin...9408421--**********.499794600--view_id.341113

Click to expand...

Great. Thanks again Rogers. I didn't think regular molded hose would do it, but I couldn't find these parts in the list.

Re: Permission to board, please

DonoGrosso said:

Super! Thanks. This is loaded with info, but it's not specific to my Ford 302 based plant ... is ther one that is? Otherwise, it looks like much of this manual will apply. I apologize if this is all in a FAQ or sticky thread somewhere.

Click to expand...

There's a reason for that...
I used your year 1980 as a reference without looking up the 888. According to the info in the Sticky, the 888 was from 1971-1977.

So you need a different manual. Manual #1-covers you from '71-'73 and #2 covers '74-'77.

So the question is... What year is your engine/drive?

The info in the sticky I got the specs from is here:
How to ID an Alpha Style Outdrive, and History.
http://www.4shared.com/file/21385430...nd_Histor.html

This can be used to check the year of your engine, drive, and transom shield by serial number.
http://www.4shared.com/document/TcRI..._SN_range.html

Re: Permission to board, please

Welcome to IBoats!

DonoGrosso said:

When I slowed down (maybe too fast?), to check out the smoke, it was taking on some water, but not too bad. Puzzled, I hesitantly throttled up again, boat ran fine, but smoke continued.

Slowed down again (probably too fast again, my wake came up on me a bit), and stopped. When I stopped it was really taking on some water. I figure this has to be the bellows (?), the plug was in and the hull appears in great shape.

Click to expand...

Did you ever locate an entry point for that water? I ask because like Rogers was implying this may be a clue as to why you may be overheating as well. For example, if it was being pumped into your boat via the impeller but never making it to the cooling system/exhaust because of a leak, hole or blockage (possibly diverting it into the bilge). Obviously if you saw water bubbling in from the bellows this may not apply.

Also, in my opinion if it's spitting out exhaust water that's good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all good...it might not be flowing through everything, and as the rpm increases so does the heat.

Re: Permission to board, please

bds85466 said:

Welcome to IBoats!



Did you ever locate an entry point for that water? I ask because like Rogers was implying this may be a clue as to why you may be overheating as well. For example, if it was being pumped into your boat via the impeller but never making it to the cooling system/exhaust because of a leak, hole or blockage (possibly diverting it into the bilge). Obviously if you saw water bubbling in from the bellows this may not apply.

Also, in my opinion if it's spitting out exhaust water that's good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all good...it might not be flowing through everything, and as the rpm increases so does the heat.

Click to expand...

No, I didn't find the entry point. I don't know enough and certainly did not make detailed observations -- the darned thing almost sunk -- had to pull it onto the trailer with ropes, etc. So maybe more details will help ... This was maiden launch with the "new" boat. Idled it to operating temp on the trailer, then in the marina for about 20 minutes idling, checking gauges, pump, blower, depth finder, etc. Everything seemed fine, engine was idling smooth, no water was in the bilge, everything seemed ok. We putted out of the marina. Over several minutes I throttled up to about 3/4 throttle, inch at a time, and started cruising there for minute, went to WOT for a few seconds just to see if it would, then backed off again to 3/4 throttle and started noticing the smoke. I stopped and killed the motor, it was smoking but there wasn't much water in the bilge -- but a little bit. The smoke appeared to be coming from the rear of the engine, port side. The smoke stopped pretty soon after I killed the engine, so I turned back for the marina and went back up to 1/2-3/4 throttle -- this is about the time the T climbed over 170. Smoke continued and the tail felt heavy, stopped and had too much water! Sat for a minute with the bildge pump on and the water level went down. Fired it up, had no power under load, water came back in, and over the course of the 10 minute stop/start trip back to the marina, it filled with water up to the oil pan!!, smoke continued, and I never got my power back under load (engine would rev to 4000 no prob in neutral though). We made it back by luck, then with even more luck got the trailer down the ramp and pulled the boat on with ropes about the time the oil pan was bathing in water.

Before it went in the water, I ran it several times on the hose. Water was spitting out what I guess are the side ports behind the prop? Not a lot of water, but I'm not familiar with what it should look like. The exhaust bellows had a minor crack in it, but I was told this wasn't a bad thing and wouldn't let water in the boat. During these hose runs, the only water I saw was a very slow drip (2 drops a minute or so) from the bottom hose on the circulation water pump. I put it in gear and rev it a bit in gear and neutral -- not for a long time, but for a minute or so. It seemed ok at that point, so we took it to the lake and now you know that story.

My plan is to replace the impeller and all associated pump parts; replace all 3 bellows. Then I'll take of the risers, find and replace the burned up hose and any others that look worn (they all look quite new -- like still shiny with shiny new hose clamps -- which hopefully wasn't a bandaid over what I'm dealing with now). When these known issues are repaired, I guess I'll run it on the hose and when revved it should spit water out the prop, right?

The water seemed to come in faster or maybe only when it was running, and it seemed to start after we left the marina and opened up the throttle a bit. With the engine stopped and the bilge pump running, the water went down. I started the engine back up, left the bilge pump running, and it swamped the pump and continued to fill. Based on this, my wife's intuition was that the boat was actually pumping the water into the bilge.

Based on my limited knowledge, this could mean the impeller is actually working, but there is a leak or blockage up the line somewhere int he cooling system ... ? Or maybe my impeller went out or was out and the circ pump kept things cool idling in nice cold spring run-off water?

Thanks bds

Re: Permission to board, please

Why not run it on the muffs for a short time, watching the temp gauge closely? Should be able to quickly find any hose issue. If none is found, then it is probably the U-joint bellows, but most likely you are going to need other work than just bellows replacement. Water in there can quickly cause other damage. U-joint, seals, and water in drive.

Re: Permission to board, please

Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1 said:

There's a reason for that...
I used your year 1980 as a reference without looking up the 888. According to the info in the Sticky, the 888 was from 1971-1977.

So you need a different manual. Manual #1-covers you from '71-'73 and #2 covers '74-'77.

So the question is... What year is your engine/drive?

The info in the sticky I got the specs from is here:
How to ID an Alpha Style Outdrive, and History.
http://www.4shared.com/file/21385430...nd_Histor.html

This can be used to check the year of your engine, drive, and transom shield by serial number.
http://www.4shared.com/document/TcRI..._SN_range.html

Click to expand...

Aye, the thing seems to be a '76 based on where I'm finding parts. Just based on the appearance of the engine, I knew it wasn't original. It has to be a recent rebuild. The 888 outdrive seems to be in good shape (appearance at least), u-joints look really good or new. I drained the lube and it was pretty clean, no milk or cloudiness. I will look up the serial numbers tonight -- big brother at work has blocked the links.
I'm in Utah and the 888 with a Ford 302 must have been a popular re-power option in the 80's-90's here. I see lots of boats for sale in the 60's to 80's model year range with this combo here in Utah. Also several with the 888 and Chev 350, which based on parts lists I am finding was never a factory combo? I didn't realize the 888/302 was somewhat of a weirdo until I bought it and started looking for parts, performance stuff, etc.
I'll get those SSNs tonight. Thanks Eric.

Re: Permission to board, please

Sweet. Thanks John. I will do that, but now I have the darn drive pulled off and torn apart. So when I get those bellows on and the impeller pump rebuilt (I'm doin that no matter what for piece of mind), I'm going to run it on the hose and see where I find water.

That I did this prior to ever launching the boat, three times, and never saw water in the bilge tell you anthing about when or where it the problem developed.
Man, I really appreciate the knowledge here and the willingness to share. You guys and gals are awesome.

I should start a thread on how NOT to buy your first boat and then what NOT to do once you have screwed up #1!

Hmm, just realized I should add: When I pulled the drive, the gimball bearing was wet, so I 'think' this clearly means the u-joint bellows was shot? Or I guess it could mean that water pushed out through the bearing from inside the boat? I dont' know what that bearing seal looks like from inside the boat. I drained the gear lube after the incident and it did not appear to have any water in it, or at least didn't get hot with water in it.

I really don't want to replace the gimball bearing if I don't have to (I do have a new bearing with my bellows kit, just gotta get like 5 more tools to do it!). But more than that, I don't want to pull the drive and the bellows again if it is inevitable ... ???:

Re: Permission to board, please

Well, The S/N is a 3690917, so that puts the motor in the '71-'73 range, boat is an '80; outdrive doesn't have a S/N that I can find and I read that the early ones didn't have a S/N. I found the links and downloaded the Service Manual #1.

When I get the water pump, and have the drive re-installed I'll run it on muffs and try to find the leak ... all the rubber and the y-pipe appear to be in excellent condition ...

Thanks again for all the help.

Re: Permission to board, please

Make sure you align the engine before reinstalling that drive! The burning rubber issue could've been the coupler, which would correspond with the loss of power. Leave no stone unturned in identifying the root cause of that, it's not normal or healthy...

Also, regading the gimbal bearing and wetness, 10 to 1 says the u-joint bellows is shot, which means water entered and proceeded to infiltrate the u-joints and the bearing. If you're not gonna replace them you better grease the ever living %&*@! out of 'em and make sure every last drop of water has been excreted, if not, failure of either or both will be imminent.

-TVB

Re: Permission to board, please

Did I miss something? I read thru this rather quickly, I didnt see any mention of an engine coupler failure. The coupler thats bolted to the flywheel that the drive shaft slides into. Burning rubber, has RPMs but no power. If the coupler went bad [spun]the impellar is no longer turning, which would bring on the overheat causing other probs. The wet gimble may just be another coincidental problem. I would put my hand back there and see if there is melted rubber and nastiness around the coupler. Sounds highley possible to me.
edit...........
VANDENTER musta been posting while I was typing ................