Vacuum bagging questions

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
So I decided that I am going to buy a vacuum pump on Wednesday. I really want to get in to vacuum bagging some parts for my boat. It just looks like a lot of fun and something I want to do.

This winter I am going to build a new center console for my boat. Its a 1991 Sunbird Seacore 173.

Right now the boat is gutted
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=404623

I am hoping to vacuum bag the entire new deck. I have a guy thats been giving me direction but he is pretty busy and I hate bugging him all of the time with my greenhorn questions.

I was hoping someone could give me some direction on what pump to buy mostly? I am thinking ebay or craigslist.

My dumbest question that I cant find an answer to. If I buy a vacuum pump, do I need a separate electric motor to run the pump?
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
Staff member
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
26,022
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

Great idea.

I yield to the vacuum bagging master ;) Hopefully Yacht Dr (the master :D) will chime in. I know he does allot of vacuum work.
 

bananaboater

Ensign
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
932
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I worked on a 4 ply layup of a form built 8' skiff. Stitch and glue along keel. The master boat builder used a compressor from a refrigerator, just hooked up the intake line into the "bag." It got hot because of the amount of area vacuumed so we put a fan on it. No problem.
 

Coho Ghost

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
105
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

Brandon,

You (and I) are in Washington state. Contact Fiberglass Supply (they have a web site) in Skagit county. They have everything you need for vacuum bagging and instructional pamplets on the how to.

I was involved in a carbon fiber gun stock operation several years ago, and Fiberglass Supply was our primary source of info and materials.

If you are going to vacuum bag "boat size" objects, you probably want a pretty high volume pump. The stuff we did was pretty small, so a small pump worked OK.

You understand that vacuum bagging requires the use of epoxy resin, which is a heck of a lot more expensive than poly or vinyl ester. You might be able to use poly, but it kicks off so much faster than epoxy you might be right in the middle of getting every thing bagged up and have it kick before you pull any vacuum. In fact I'm not sure poly resin is compatable with the release cloth and breather blanket materials used in the process.

Good luck,

Coho Ghost
 

saildan

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
264
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I really want to get in to vacuum bagging some parts for my boat. It just looks like a lot of fun and something I want to do.

I am hoping to vacuum bag the entire new deck. I have a guy thats been giving me direction but he is pretty busy and I hate bugging him all of the time with my greenhorn questions.

My dumbest question that I cant find an answer to. If I buy a vacuum pump, do I need a separate electric motor to run the pump?
Depends on the pump you find.

00888_large.jpg


Simple and Immediate Use
A Great Starter Pump! Rated for continuous operation, this oilless pump is wired for immediate use in a standard 110 outlet. Supplied with a barb fitting which ensures secure coupling to #893 vacuum tubing. The only assembly required is the attachment of feet which are also supplied with the pump. Suitable for parts up to 30-40 sq ft. 1/16 HP, 24" Hg, .5 CFM Diaphragm Pump comes with Unlimited One Year Warranty.


That one comes from Fiber Glast for around $400.

Have you checked Harbor Freight or Northern Tool to see if they have something cheaper?

How to Vacuum Bag Fiberglass & Composites - Instructional Videos
http://www.fibreglast.com/fibreglast_how_to_vacuum_bag


Vacuum Bagging Techniques from WEST System Epoxy


Click on Image

:)
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I worked on a 4 ply layup of a form built 8' skiff. Stitch and glue along keel. The master boat builder used a compressor from a refrigerator, just hooked up the intake line into the "bag." It got hot because of the amount of area vacuumed so we put a fan on it. No problem.

Hopefully if my brain is working today I can suck all of this up like a sponge When I wrote that post last night, about 20 minutes later I was quite ill. Between trips to the bathroom I refreshed this thread many times hoping to read what some others suggest. Thats how obsessed I am :D Still a bit ill, but I think I am gonna be my normal self here right quick.

Yeah I looked around here on iboats a bit and there is lots of threads where people refer to vacuum bagging, but I have not found a thread with specifics. Google and youtube have been a huge resource for research. Long as you dont mind videos from like 1985 ;)

Its just not the same as talking to you guys that have done this before

Would be awesome if everyone that knows a bit about vacuum bagging posted a little about it. There has gotta be more guys like me out there who are wanting to get in to it but are not sure on the specifics.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

If you are going to vacuum bag "boat size" objects, you probably want a pretty high volume pump. The stuff we did was pretty small, so a small pump worked OK.

You understand that vacuum bagging requires the use of epoxy resin, which is a heck of a lot more expensive than poly or vinyl ester. You might be able to use poly, but it kicks off so much faster than epoxy you might be right in the middle of getting every thing bagged up and have it kick before you pull any vacuum. In fact I'm not sure poly resin is compatable with the release cloth and breather blanket materials used in the process.

Actually you can use epoxy or poly, depending on what you're making. The main prerequisite for the resin used is that it has to be thin, because usually it has to flow out and wet the entire layup at once.

Note that the rest of the comments I make here refer to vacuum infusion, which is I presume what the original poster wants. Vacuum bagging is a subset of this, where you use a vacuum bag to compress an already wet out layup and remove excess resin.

For basic vacuum bagging you need A) A vacuum pump, B) Fiberglass and resin C) Bag material and D) Tape or sealing clay. For most applications you also need additional layers like flow media and peel ply. Also, you'll probably want some specialized fittings and tubing to infuse more complex parts.

In its simplest form, a vacuum bag setup is a vacuum pump sucking air out of a sealed bag. The bag covers the layup of fiberglass on a mold or part to be laminated. The hose from the pump goes into the bag and is sealed to not allow air to leak in. The end of the hose may be covered with sponge or a similar material to prevent blockage of the hose with resin or plastic. Another hose likewise sealed into the bag at the other end of the part is crimped off outside the bag. When the vacuum is pulled and the bag tight, the end of this second hose is placed into resin in a container. The crimp is released and the vacuum sucks the resin into the bag and onto the part. Once the part is completely wet out you crimp off the hose again and hold the vacuum until the resin sets. The plastic bag won't stick to the resin, so you can then remove your part, which because of the vacuum has a very good resin/glass ratio and is well pressed together.

Of course, any real setup has to have some other things. First, the pump. Unless you set the pump up with a pressure switch to turn it off when the vacuum is pulled, it has to run all the time. Unless it's a more expensive industrial pump it's not meant to run all the time, so it overheats and breaks down.

It's a good idea to have an industrial pump brand that's meant for continuous running, but even if the pump doesn't break it costs $$ to run it until the resin hardens. So, you want to switch it off if the vacuum is "good" until it's needed. You need a pressure switch for this, connected to a relay that controls the pump. Most pumps can pull a lot of current when they start up, so you need a hefty relay. Since almost all bag layups leak, it's also good to have a reservoir.. basically a tank that the pump vacuums out before it starts on the bag. Otherwise even a tiny leak will let in enough air to start the pump.... which will shut off a few seconds later, only to start up again when the leak lets in enough air. Finally, you want a check valve to prevent the bag from sucking air back through the pump.. without this, air can leak through the pump when it's not running (or vapor from boiling oil or water in the pump) and kill the vacuum as well.

The reservoir also prevents the resin sucked out of the bag from making it to your pump, which would gum it up permanently.

Aside from the pump, you need a bag. You can use high quality window replacement plastic (eg. 10 mil) from your local home depot type store to try things out, but be aware that it's not ideal for anything more than simple parts. In particular anything that needs the plastic to stretch won't do well with this. Some people do use garbage bags or shower curtains too.. depends on what you're doing. But to avoid aggravation, professional vacuum bags don't cost that much and once you get the hang of things are re-usable.

To seal the bag you need tape. Good quality tape. The standard for this has the highly technical name of "sticky tape" or "tack tape". It's sort of a cross between weatherstripping and tape, you use it to seal the edges of the bag against air. If you're doing a two sided bag you'll seal three edges of the bag against itself, forming an envelope. If you're bagging against a mold, table or other surface you'll seal against that. Be warned that some otherwise solid pieces of wood can leak air through them, by the way. You need to seal the surface.

Inside the bag is your layup... all the layers of your part in place and trimmed, ready to go. To ensure they all get wet out you'll want to plan the path the resin will take. It's going to go from the inlet tube straight toward the vacuum tube, spreading some along the way. What most people do to infuse parts seems to be make the resin inlet in the middle of the part and use spiral tubing, similar to the stuff you wrap wires with to bundle them together, to channel air from the entire border of the part to the vacuum tube. When the resin is let in it goes in all directions toward the vacuum, covering the whole part.

To ensure the resin travels well, it needs a layer it can flow through. Plastic pressed hard against fiberglass with resin already in it does not make for an easy path for flow. You use a flow layer, which is a mesh or loose polyester batting (pillow filling) to let the resin flow around and over obstacles. The mass of the flow layer also prevents the vacuum from cutting off the flow. You can even get special flow cloth that becomes a permanent part of your part. Again you can start here cheap, using pillow filling, but the plastic mesh from a pro shop is easier to deal with.

So if you put pillow filling on your part, won't you get a fuzzy part? Yes, you will. So you use another layer, called peel ply, to prevent this. Peel ply is usually rip stop nylon... it's a fabric that is tough, resin won't generally stick to it (at least very well) and it lets resin flow through it. Peel ply gets peeled off at the end of the process to reveal the now laminated part. As a bonus it also gives the part a nice "fuzzy" surface feel that is ideal for further laminating work. If you would rather have a smooth, shiny surface you can use a different material.

For your first part, I recommend the following: Poly resin (nice and thin), a low end industrial vacuum pump (Gast 1 cfm or better is good, but I have also used a harbor freight special) with clear vinyl tubing from the local home store. GET a check valve and vacuum switch, you'll need them. For your first attempt, do a simple part like a flat piece of plywood or some sort of near flat layup either in a wrap around bag or against a plastic or other sealed surface. You can start out with a shower curtain liner bag or similar plastic from the home center.

I strongly recommend getting the sticky tape from a real supply store, and the fittings for the hoses they sell are very, very nice to have too. On the other hand you can get by with good quality packaging tape and a couple pairs of vise grips for crimping. Look up how to do "pleats" in the bag and make sure you don't let any folds in the bag reach the edges.. they will leak like crazy.

Do your layup including vacuum hoses and tape it up. Then start the pump, together with your cutoff switch, reservoir, and check valve, and watch it suck out the air. By the way, if you think you need a high capacity pump to get the air out, you don't. You can use a shop vac to do the initial pull down. Don't try to use one later for holding the vacuum though, they aren't meant to run for a long time just like a cheap pump. Use the shop vac to get most of the air out, then connect the real vacuum pump.

Your pump has to pump fast enough to keep up with any leaks. In a perfect world the pump would pull a vacuum, nothing would leak, you'd let the resin in, it would saturate the glass, you'd crimp the inlet, and your resin would harden into a part.

In reality you usually end up with 1-3 tiny leaks you can't quite find, and if your pump can't keep up by continual running you'll have to re-do the whole bag and tape layup. Ideally your pump should only run once every 5 min or so at most, to keep the bag and reservoir evacuated.

So start out by running the pump. See if you can get the bag to not leak air (you may have guessed you'll want at least one, preferably two vacuum gauges also connected to the whole system). If you can get the bag leaks down so the pump only runs once a minute, give the resin a try. Watch how it flows, and note where it doesn't go easily... you may need to massage the bag to push it where it's dry, but again ideally you shouldn't need to do that... in the future you'll arrange the tubing and add-ons like fittings and spiral wrap to make the resin flow where you want.

If you haven't guessed you'll also need to pre-calculate how much resin you need to catalyze/mix. Ideally you'll want 1:1 or so by weight ratio with your glass, which is better than almost any hand lay-up, hence the reason we use vacuum infusion.

The other major reason to infuse is to let you have tons of setup time, getting the glass trimmed just so and laid in place, then wetting it all out at once. Which would you rather do: 10 layers of glass and resin applied by hand on a large part in a several hour marathon, or 10 layers of glass applied between other tasks over several days, culminating in a couple hours of bagging and infusion, resulting in a lighter part?

Anyway, my major thrust here is to learn by doing. The least aggravating way to do this is to pay the cash for a good quality 3-4 cfm pump, get professional bags, peel ply, flow media, tape, fittings and tubing, plus resin specifically designed for infusion. Start with a simple part. You can go cheap, but remember you're putting some extra barriers in your way, and it may go well or not. About the time you fix the 15th leak you may wish you'd used better materials.

All that said, I've done this successfully with a harbor freight vac pump, and others have used re-purposed refrigerator compressors. I've had ok luck using rolled plastic window material and rip-stop nylon in addition to commercial bags and peel ply.

I haven't graduated to using infusion for large parts on the boat yet, due to the difficulties in sealing the bag when not on a smooth table, but I probably will someday. In the meantime, it's a useful tool in the box, and it makes better composite panels than anything else I can do.

Erik
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

PS: Do a search here and on boatdesign.net for posts by "KnottyBuoyz"... he has a nice vac bag setup using inexpensive materials and has done some nice write-ups.

Erik
 

sasto

Captain
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
3,918
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I am hoping to vacuum bag the entire new deck.

Maybe if you clarify what you mean ....New deck out of a mold? If I were building the deck the only thing I would bag is the core (balsa). In my opinion, you need alot of expierence with hand lay-up before trying something this big.
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I have my boat torn apart, its a Seacore 173 (center console). Its a long story but I removed the entire deck out of it. Easier just to say the entire boat is gutted. Foam and all.

I spend 8 - 12 hours a day working on my boat. Everyday. Most of my time spent was removing everything in the boat. But I have spent a good month working on a mold for my live well. I cant even begin to say how many hours I have put in to it. I totally screwed it up the first time.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=404623

I have bought a couple different kinds of Poly resin, but my favorite so far is what fiberglasssupply.com sells.

I am planning on using epoxy resin, perhaps the "West system" when I do put the deck back in the boat. First thing will be replacing the foam that came out of the boat. Then laying down 4 layers of my 18oz matt for the deck. This is the other part that I want to vacuum bag.

The total deck space being replace is 12.5' x 60" (thats not exact because of the shape).

Could it be possible for a guy to lay down the entire deck and vacuum bag it in one shot? Or better to break it up and do a few sections at once? There is no mold for the deck.

I understand that Epoxy resin is stronger, lighter and way more durable. I know it costs more, but I am ok with that.

Reading my ramblings you guys can tell I am still very "green" at this. Thats not going to slow me down though.

Tomorrow is the day that I am hoping to make some orders for some of the parts. Then another order next week.

In the meantime, I am hoping to vacuum bag (with epoxy resin) my livewell.

deck_removed_cropped.jpg


I bought some of this " Bi-Directional, E-Glass, 0-90 Biax Knitted Cloth 18 oz. per square yard. " The nice thing is that it is 8 feet wide.
 

sasto

Captain
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
3,918
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I like guys like you, Brandon. You go after it. Please keep us posted on your progress with your livewell and "deck".
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

Hello Brandon..

Gast makes some good pumps ( no you dont need a seperate pump/motor ). You will have to decide how big of a pump for yourself .. research the pump.

I agree that bagging is fun :)

I know whats needed has been said but I will reiterate..

1. Pump.... something that can run overnight if needed.
2. Manifold with check valves for multiple hose hook ups.
3. Buy a box of nylon hose.
4. Frogs and quick connectors for hose attachment.
5. Bagging film, Breather material, Bleeder material, possibibly peel-ply, and Bagging tape ( the real bagging tape ).
6. Possible Resin catch if doing poly ( Ill explain if needed later )

The biggest suggestion I have is learn how to "dart" or "pleat" .. meaning your corners where you have to kinda hunch up bagging film. Once you got that down your leaks will be lowered greatly.

One other must buy if your going to do a large project is an ampified "leak" sniffer. Basically a unit with earphones and a device that looks like a stud finder with a plastic snout attached.. turn that baby on and you will find your leakes very quickly.

I agree with knowing how large of an area your talking about would be helpfull.

Hope this helps.

YD.
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

Erik.. Wow! Thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that. I have read it all word for word. I gotta digest the information and look around, then will be back with more questions i'm sure :) Thanks again man, that must of taken awhile to write
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

CFM on the pump is one of the least important things, 2 CFM is fine and for bagging you don't need to pull a full vacuum either, for infusion you do though.

What is it you want to achieve by bagging these parts? There's nothing wrong with it, it just makes it easier to guide you in the right direction if we know what it is you're expecting the result to be.

Fiberglass supply will have everything you need.
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

CFM on the pump is one of the least important things, 2 CFM is fine and for bagging you don't need to pull a full vacuum either, for infusion you do though.

What is it you want to achieve by bagging these parts? There's nothing wrong with it, it just makes it easier to guide you in the right direction if we know what it is you're expecting the result to be.

Fiberglass supply will have everything you need.

Thats a really good question. I think the answer is perfection in a newly found hobby. It goes way past putting my boat back together.

I have a lot of time on my hands these days. My 2 sons and I decided that when we were done putting this boat back together that we were going to buy another one and restore it from the ground up.

I am going to put the original console back in to the boat I am working on now. In a couple months I am going to build another nicer console. No reason really other then its just something I want to do. If I can figure out how, I would like to do as much of it as possible with carbon fiber.

Weight, its a huge issue with the boat I am working on now. Its a foam filled center console. As you can see I gutted it, but am going to put the foam back and I need to keep the weight as light as I can. I know a few parts here and there will make zero difference in the actual handling of it. But I will sleep better knowing "I vacuum bagged that livewell with epoxy resin, I did it right".

I hate it when I buy something and then find out a few days later that its lacking certain features. Or in a couple months I find out that my setup is not worthy to do a panel in carbon fiber for the console.

That pump that I posted the url to on ebay. There was one for sale on Craigslist for $300. I looked it up and it did say continuous use and I saw the 10 CFM 1/2hp and thought that looked like it could work.

I have 2 pages of notes that I have taken from this thread and the links from it today. Learning about CFM and Hg is the symbol for Mercury, atmospheric pressure.. haha. Fun stuff :)

The link that Bob posted, thats a fantastic site and some GREAT reading for a guy like me.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm

All in all, Its fair for me to call it a hobby that will be used everyday and I just dont want to mess up and buy the wrong stuff.

Thanks again fella's for putting up with my questions. I got many more on the way :D
 

BrandonHa

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
101
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

CFM on the pump is one of the least important things, 2 CFM is fine and for bagging you don't need to pull a full vacuum either, for infusion you do though.

What is it you want to achieve by bagging these parts? There's nothing wrong with it, it just makes it easier to guide you in the right direction if we know what it is you're expecting the result to be.

Fiberglass supply will have everything you need.

Forgot something. I really want to use Epoxy resin for the new deck of my boat and if at all possible, I want to vacuum bag the deck after its laid up in the boat. I dont really have a plan on how to do this yet, but it is what I am wanting to achieve
 

ajgraz

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
1,858
Re: Vacuum bagging questions

I've got no idea if this pump will work for your application, but I picked up a 115VAC, 1/4 hp Thomas TA-0040-V rotary vane vacuum pump at a swap meet for a project of mine that never got off the ground. Stats on it can be found here:

http://www.lxpumps.com/THOMAS/xp/Taskair1_6.pdf

Also goes by model number 291246, it is the one with the filters.

This pump has never been used, it hasn't even yet been wired up for AC.

It's just taking up space and I'm in the midst of garage-cleanout, so if you want it, shoot me a ridiculously lowball offer via PM. Let me know zip code for shipping.

EDIT: if any of you guys with vacuum bagging experience can chime in on whether this pump might work for the application, please do. I won't be offended if this is not the right machine. Thanks.
 
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