Who decided that fighting is bad?

[jay_merrill]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

While I understand what you are getting at, I think you are using the wrong terminology.

I would rather teach my kid to defend himself, rather than to fight. Yes, I am making a seemingly "nitpicky" distinction, but its an important one. Walking away from a fight when you can, does not mean you have to get beat up or bullied day after day. When you get in an unavoidable situation and end it very quickly, because you have learned how to do that, it gets hard to describe it as a fight.

BTW, another good reason not to engage in fights, if you can avoid them, is that you don't have to be the one who was wrong, to get sued. Sore losers do that sort of thing all of the time.

???

 

[Cofe]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Fighting is a part of the human condition.
If we are not fighting someone, or something,
we will fight with ourselves.

If we fight for nothing, we will fall for anything.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Since you're so against whooping their azz, what's your solution or method of teaching them cheburashka? or rehabilitate or whatever you called it?

 

[HVAC Cruiser]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I'm with Bob on this one, its really great that some think you can just walk away when confronted, to bad that's not real life for the most part. Where I grew up if you turned to walk away you were setting yourself up for getting hit in the head with a pipe. Lots of times it not just about someone being a bully, I grew up in the 70's in a very hostile neighborhood and if I tried to walk away I probably wouldn't have survived. The odds were never even usually a min of 3 to 1 so you had to take out the biggest guy 1st and the rest would run. With respect to what KRH said, I agree but it also has to do with your surroundings, there was a big difference between ENY Brooklyn and suburbia USA.
I was taught, Yes take evasive measures to try to avoid conflict but don't back down or your done for. I'm a little guy at 5'5" so I was a target to those who didn't know me and had no choice but to fight sometimes every other day of the week it was a way of life.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Since you're so against whooping their azz, what's your solution or method of teaching them cheburashka? or rehabilitate or whatever you called it?

It's not my job or my son's job to rehabilitate bullies. I leave it to school authorities to take care of the problem and my experience has been that this does a better job than trying to beat some sense into them.

I'm with Bob on this one, its really great that some think you can just walk away when confronted, to bad that's not real life for the most part. Where I grew up if you turned to walk away you were setting yourself up for getting hit in the head with a pipe. Lots of times it not just about someone being a bully, I grew up in the 70's in a very hostile neighborhood and if I tried to walk away I probably wouldn't have survived. The odds were never even usually a min of 3 to 1 so you had to take out the biggest guy 1st and the rest would run. With respect to what KRH said, I agree but it also has to do with your surroundings, there was a big difference between ENY Brooklyn and suburbia USA.
I was taught, Yes take evasive measures to try to avoid conflict but don't back down or your done for. I'm a little guy at 5'5" so I was a target to those who didn't know me and had no choice but to fight sometimes every other day of the week it was a way of life.

I agree, it depends on where you grew up, and I think it's a different world now than it was then. I've got no problem with people who want to defend themselves, or to teach their kids self-defense. I just get my back up when people start into this "we're turning into a nation of sissies" nonsense, or going on about how the authorities today don't know what they're doing and it's so much worse now than it was back in the day. I don't buy it.

There are many approaches to bullying. This thread started as an attack on one of them, and the approach that's being attacked is the one that I'm most familiar with and the one that has always seemed most reasonable to me. I don't know if the difference in opinion is a liberal/conservative thing, and East Coast/West Coast thing, or something entirely different, but the posts here that are belittling a pacifist attitude rub me the wrong way.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I have a lot of respect for Bob (VT)'s input on this forum and his moderation...but the statement that "fighting is bad....was decided by the people that didn't win"...is a bit slim in truth and depth.
Buck45 has the best take on this so far and he would probably know...at least more than most. (page 1)
Everyone thinks it's ok until their boy, their daughter, their neighbour, their grandkids, their friend, gets punched out or bullied.....ahh for the wrong reasons of course...at least when it happens in their circle.
Then they call the police, whine to everyone, call their lawyers, call the teachers, call the press because....well heck, lets face it...they only really lost a fight.
Just my two bits.
BP

 

[HVAC Cruiser]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

It's not my job or my son's job to rehabilitate bullies. I leave it to school authorities to take care of the problem and my experience has been that this does a better job than trying to beat some sense into them.



I agree, it depends on where you grew up, and I think it's a different world now than it was then. I've got no problem with people who want to defend themselves, or to teach their kids self-defense. I just get my back up when people start into this "we're turning into a nation of sissies" nonsense, or going on about how the authorities today don't know what they're doing and it's so much worse now than it was back in the day. I don't buy it.

There are many approaches to bullying. This thread started as an attack on one of them, and the approach that's being attacked is the one that I'm most familiar with and the one that has always seemed most reasonable to me. I don't know if the difference in opinion is a liberal/conservative thing, and East Coast/West Coast thing, or something entirely different, but the posts here that are belittling a pacifist attitude rub me the wrong way.

Hi Cheb,

I am not going to touch the lib/con/dem/rep thing, don't want to see the thread locked People that know me know where I stand there. I will say that I don't think that has anything to do with it.

My experiences for the most part was not with bullies, for the most part it was racism or thugs looking to rob ( I was the minority) sometimes it was both
Schools have a 0 tolerance rule, and I agree 100% with that but there are times were even when trying to take the pacifist approach you have there has to be a line in the sand. My belief is that if a child is taught that they are not to fight under any circumstances and hide under someones skirt, you are setting them up for failure and being bullied for the rest of their life. They will have low self esteem and never learn how to defend themselves in any situation, whether it be a corporate setting, a dark alley or an intruder breaking into their home.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

My belief is that if a child is taught that they are not to fight under any circumstances and hide under someones skirt, you are setting them up for failure and being bullied for the rest of their life. They will have low self esteem and never learn how to defend themselves in any situation, whether it be a corporate setting, a dark alley or an intruder breaking into their home.

Defending yourself doesn't mean fighting. Going to the authorities isn't the same as hiding under someone's skirt. My kid has been raised with pacifist values. He has very high self esteem and he can defend himself in any situation that doesn't require physical violence. He knows how to handle a bully, and he runs into plenty of them. He's no wimp. He just doesn't fight. And he has friends who do fight, and who are doing poorly in school, getting suspended, and pretty much ensuring that they will have problems in life as adults.

Take this forum as an example of how bullying can be dealt with. Three years ago there was rampant bullying. I don't know if you were here then, but it wasn't pretty. Fighting back did no good--it just made it worse. If you were here, you probably remember who the bullies were. I'm handy with words, and managed to inflict my share of wounds. Got some PMs and such that made it very evident that they knew they had lost a fight. And yet they kept going. They didn't stop until the site administrators set up a policy that said that the kind of behavior they were engaging in was not allowed. At that point, they either changed their ways, got expelled, or left for "greener pastures." They went to places where they're allowed to fight because that's what they like to do. Bullies are like that.

This site is currently run a lot like the schools are. I like that.

Am I hiding under someone's skirt when I report an offensive post? I don't think so. Am I unable to defend myself? Nope. Do I have low self esteem? I don't think anyone here would say that about me Sometimes a forum is a lot like the real world.

 

[rbh]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Maybe???? we should look at this from a who is aggressive and who is not!
There is no good answer in my book, they both have their positive and negative points.
As a kid/child you are supposed to learn right from wrong and yes learn by your mistakes, that is the PARENTS job.
As an adult these life lessons should be drilled into you.

 

[HVAC Cruiser]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Defending yourself doesn't mean fighting. Going to the authorities isn't the same as hiding under someone's skirt. My kid has been raised with pacifist values. He has very high self esteem and he can defend himself in any situation that doesn't require physical violence. He knows how to handle a bully, and he runs into plenty of them. He's no wimp. He just doesn't fight. And he has friends who do fight, and who are doing poorly in school, getting suspended, and pretty much ensuring that they will have problems in life as adults.

Take this forum as an example of how bullying can be dealt with. Three years ago there was rampant bullying. I don't know if you were here then, but it wasn't pretty. Fighting back did no good--it just made it worse. If you were here, you probably remember who the bullies were. I'm handy with words, and managed to inflict my share of wounds. Got some PMs and such that made it very evident that they knew they had lost a fight. And yet they kept going. They didn't stop until the site administrators set up a policy that said that the kind of behavior they were engaging in was not allowed. At that point, they either changed their ways, got expelled, or left for "greener pastures." They went to places where they're allowed to fight because that's what they like to do. Bullies are like that.

This site is currently run a lot like the schools are. I like that.

Am I hiding under someone's skirt when I report an offensive post? I don't think so. Am I unable to defend myself? Nope. Do I have low self esteem? I don't think anyone here would say that about me Sometimes a forum is a lot like the real world.

Hi Cheb,

We come from very different worlds, and its great hearing your opinions and I respect them. I come from one that you had no choice but to use your hands, sometimes a garbage can or whatever was close.

Being able to handle yourself doesn't mean your going to flunk out of school and get suspended all the time. What you described as friends of your son actually sounds like a bully. I fought a lot as a kid but it was usually either on my way to or home from school. At school it was more the way you carried yourself which determined whether or not you had problems. It sounds like your son has a very positive attitude which is great and they probably leave him alone.

I do believe and said it in my 1st post, yes try to avoid conflict and take evasive measures. There is a big difference between looking for trouble and having it dumped in your lap and unable to avoid. My own experience, you can't always talk yourself out of a fight, and the day that happens you better know how or have your head handed to you. As far as what I said about hiding under a skirt, every situation is different, but I have seen lots of times a child getting picked on runs to thee teacher, cop etc... that kid then gets labeled as a cry baby by other kids and subsequently the abuse from others gets worse. Ultimately the child looses his confidence and winds up on a path of self destruction. But again this is what I have witnessed in my world.


With regard to the forum Nope I wasn't here but I have seen posts and glad I missed it. I like to think we are all here to share our knowledge, ask for help, one big think tank in a healthy environment. We as a community should be above cyber-bullying and it shouldn't be tolerated. That's not why we are here.
I too report posts that's not hiding or running its keeping our community a clean and pleasant environment.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Lots of "back in the day" stories of being tough. Maybe some of them still apply in 2010, but not far from where I live, they would get you killed - literally.

I am in the sticks, but am a few miles from areas that have changed a great deal, since Hurricane Katrina. Basically, a lot of the drug dealers and other bums, who used to live in the city, moved into areas near me. A similar situation exists in Orleans Parish, as well. In that case, many of the upstanding families left for the storm and never came back. Some of those left behind are good people, but a lot are not.

Right now, New Orleans is the murder capital of the United States. We have the highest number of murders, per capita, of any city. Even "across da riva," where I live, it has gotten completely out of hand.

Now, we have 15 year old kids shooting each other on a darn near daily basis. We also have all sorts of older people doing the same thing. Nearly all of these killings have to do with "beefs" over either the drug trade, or stupid and petty arguments. Nearly all of them, however, have to do with someone "disrespecting" someone else.

A month ago, a 21 year old father of two, with a pregnant wife, was shot to death while driving on a major road here. He has been described by many who knew him, as a "good kid." This happened, because he and his buddies got into a road rage argument at a traffic light, several miles before. The passenger in the other vehicle had a shotgun, which he stuck out the window and fired.

On one of the murders involving a youth, the kid's uncle was in a fist fight with someone, again over stupid stuff. He was the aggressor, but lost the fight. Two days later the 15 year, who had no trouble getting his hands on a gun, stalked and murdered the guy who beat his uncle up.

I could go on and on with recount after recount of the things that yonger people are doing these days. The simple fact of the matter, is that those without proper parental input, have become victims of the popular culture that now exists. That culture, is one that says you treat any form of disrespect with ultimate violence. This is also not something that is five or ten years in the making - it has been going on much longer and many of the young victims of it, are now parents. Those same people are now raising kids and are teaching them that this is an acceptable way of life.

I'll stand by my thought, that I would much rather teach self defense for personal protection, at times when there just is no escape route. The stand and fight thing may fit someone's idea of how to raise a "macho" kid, but I'd rather have a live kid, than one who was murdered, just so everyone would know he's a BA.



???

 

[HVAC Cruiser]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

I'll stand by my thought, that I would much rather teach self defense for personal protection, at times when there just is no escape route. The stand and fight thing may fit someone's idea of how to raise a "macho" kid, but I'd rather have a live kid, than one who was murdered, just so everyone would know he's a BA.



???

Hi Jay,
I agree with your thought, self defense for personal protection when there is no escaping it, which I stated before.

I think this is a case with tone and the net,

I'm not talking about being tough, I am talking about surviving. I was once stabbed while waiting for the "A" train just because of my color (white). Never saw the kid before, never exchanged a word, it wasn't retaliation for anything, never even saw him coming. If I couldn't defend myself I would probably be dead.

I am probably off topic with commenting in this thread my experience wasn't with bullies. Believe me I didn't enjoy my childhood I too lived in a war zone, back then East New York /Brownsville was the murder capital of the nation . My parents would take us away for the entire summer every year when school ended trying to insulate us from it. In hindsight they should have just MOVED.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

It's not your job? leave it to someone else? That's a very different attitude compared to your stand on other issues we've discussed here in the past. The comparision of what had happened here versus the school yard is invalid. The discussions here are between grown ups with different opinions even though it got heated and uncalled for comments were posted. I can guarantee you that those comments wouldn't have happened if we were having a face to face discussion. I don't see how disagreeing with someone's opinion is the same thing as bullying. BTW, arguing is not the same thing as fighting.

 

[LadyFish]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

It's not your job? leave it to someone else? That's a very different attitude compared to your stand on other issues we've discussed here in the past. The comparision of what had happened here versus the school yard is invalid. The discussions here are between grown ups with different opinions even though it got heated and uncalled for comments were posted. I can guarantee you that those comments wouldn't have happened if we were having a face to face discussion. I don't see how disagreeing with someone's opinion is the same thing as bullying. BTW, arguing is not the same thing as fighting.

Just keep in mind that neither are permitted here on iboats.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

It's not your job? leave it to someone else? That's a very different attitude compared to your stand on other issues we've discussed here in the past. The comparision of what had happened here versus the school yard is invalid. The discussions here are between grown ups with different opinions even though it got heated and uncalled for comments were posted. I can guarantee you that those comments wouldn't have happened if we were having a face to face discussion. I don't see how disagreeing with someone's opinion is the same thing as bullying. BTW, arguing is not the same thing as fighting.

You know, I'm allowed to take different stands on different topics. It's not like the liberal police are going to ticket me for posting something they disagree with.

I really don't think it's my place or my son's place to teach bullies a lesson by hitting them. He knows how to talk to them in a way that might teach them a lesson, but that's a different matter. Self defense is a very different thing from being a vigilante on the schoolyard.

I'm with you on the idea that disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't the same as bullying. However, that's not what used to happen here. Posters would gang up on other people, they'd intentionally twist the spelling of their handles to make them angry, they'd do whatever they could to make sure it wasn't a fair fight. Take a look back at the posts and you'll see what I mean. I think the comparison of this forum to the schoolyard is a very valid one to make.

Right now, we're hashing out a disagreement--I'd call it arguing, but to me that means something different than it means to others since I teach argumentative writing for a living. Having a nice intellectual discussion is fine with me. I think there's mutual respect and an interest in understanding other people's perspectives. That's what's currently allowed on this forum, but there was a time when there was definitely fighting going on. And yes, bullying. Absolutely bullying.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Self defense is a very different thing from being a vigilante on the schoolyard.

I'm with you on the idea that disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't the same as bullying. However, that's not what used to happen here. Posters would gang up on other people, they'd intentionally twist the spelling of their handles to make them angry, they'd do whatever they could to make sure it wasn't a fair fight. Take a look back at the posts and you'll see what I mean. I think the comparison of this forum to the schoolyard is a very valid one to make.

Right now, we're hashing out a disagreement--I'd call it arguing, but to me that means something different than it means to others since I teach argumentative writing for a living. Having a nice intellectual discussion is fine with me. I think there's mutual respect and an interest in understanding other people's perspectives. That's what's currently allowed on this forum, but there was a time when there was definitely fighting going on. And yes, bullying. Absolutely bullying.

Well put Cheburaska.
IMHO a lot of people can not and do not distinguish from discussing...to debating....to argueing....to fighting. Depending on their environment and background, its all the same thing.....NOT.
A lot of the previous environment here was definitely aggressive argueing bordering on (non-physical) fighting.
Although entertaining at times, I'm glad it's kaput.
My two bits.
BP

 

[jonesg]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

The zero tolerance taunting policy in Mass, aka no common sense, results in students being arrested for calling someone fat. You can't make this stuff up.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/salem-high-students-charged-with-bullying-20100514

These are the same policies that get students suspended for taking aspirin for headaches but the school will arrange an abortion without telling the parents.

In victorian England there was a zero tolerance of rape, the penalty was hanging, but rape murder went through the roof because the rapist had absolutely nothing to lose by killing the possible witness.
An eye for an eye isn't an invitation.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

The zero tolerance taunting policy in Mass, aka no common sense, results in students being arrested for calling someone fat. You can't make this stuff up.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/salem-high-students-charged-with-bullying-20100514

In that case they didn't just call a girl fat. They harassed her for years. What's she supposed to do when targeted in this way? She can't beat them up because they didn't hit her. She could call them names back, but there were five of them and one of her. Verbal abuse is every bit as serious as physical abuse. I'd say there's plenty of common sense involved in punishing those five students.

As to the rest of your post, I don't see what it has to do with bullying so I'll just let it be.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

Didn't think this one would see 60 posts and still be open !!!!

 

[strokeoluck]

Re: Who decided that fighting is bad?

In our kid's schools they have anti-bullying policies and practices, and they're working pretty darn well. I can see where, on the one hand, it might lead people to believe that we're raising a bunch of pansies. But on the other hand, what if it leads to a world where people just treat each other better? That's what I choose to believe. I'm not some pacifist by any means, I have plenty of relatives that served in the armed forces and relatives that were/are in law enforcement. But I really do like the fact that our schools are trying to eradicate bullying. Our kids - 11 and 10 - are both very secure, confident kids enjoying the heck out of school. I chalk a bit of that up to parenting, a bit to the teachers, and a bit to the non-bullying position taken by the school.