some observations...

[fsds123]

I've noticed every time someone asks "can I tow this boat with this car" people always chime in about needing a truck, not a car. The reasons are varied, but none make any sense.

Some common things said are:

1. The car is not heavy enough to stop the boat/trailer in an emergency.

Really? So a 3500 lb car towing a 2000 lb trailer/boat is dangerous, but a 7000 lb truck towing a 12,000 lb boat/trailer is safe? How about a 15,000lb semi towing 80,000 lbs? Why the double standard?

2. The car does not have big enough brakes.

Again, really? The typical 3500lb sedan has 4 wheels disk brakes with 12.5 inch rotors. Trucks typically have 13.5 inch rotors, but weigh twice as much as the car does. Just look at the braking distances of cars vs trucks.

3. The unibody will get all bent out of shape.

I've read numerous posts about hitches failing on trucks. A simple Google search brings up millions of hits. Can't say I have ever heard of a unibody failing.

4. Buy a beater truck, it is safer.

So it is safer to use an old truck with 11 inch front rotors and rear drum brakes with no abs over a new car with 12.5 inch rotors? Why?

 

[tawood]

Re: some observations...

My ONLY concern for pulling a trailer with a car would be the trans (as long as weight was within reason, it didn't totally block the mirrors, etc)....

As far as advice on here is concerned, I've noticed there are 3 catagories:
1. People love to spend other peoples money. It is easy to tell someone to buy something, it isn't your money, it is theirs.
2. People are looking for an excuse to get something new, or justify the new item they just bought ("I bought a truck cause it's just better. You should get one too.")
3. Genuine advice....rare!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: some observations...

I've noticed every time someone asks "can I tow this boat with this car" people always chime in about needing a truck, not a car. The reasons are varied, but none make any sense.

Some common things said are:

1. The car is not heavy enough to stop the boat/trailer in an emergency.

Really? So a 3500 lb car towing a 2000 lb trailer/boat is dangerous, but a 7000 lb truck towing a 12,000 lb boat/trailer is safe? How about a 15,000lb semi towing 80,000 lbs? Why the double standard?

2. The car does not have big enough brakes.

Again, really? The typical 3500lb sedan has 4 wheels disk brakes with 12.5 inch rotors. Trucks typically have 13.5 inch rotors, but weigh twice as much as the car does. Just look at the braking distances of cars vs trucks.

3. The unibody will get all bent out of shape.

I've read numerous posts about hitches failing on trucks. A simple Google search brings up millions of hits. Can't say I have ever heard of a unibody failing.

4. Buy a beater truck, it is safer.

So it is safer to use an old truck with 11 inch front rotors and rear drum brakes with no abs over a new car with 12.5 inch rotors? Why?

1) Yes a 3,500 lb car may not be safe/capable driving a 2,000 lb trailer. Reasons , besides brakes are suspension, transmission, and hitch attach points. Obviously depends on the particular car. All cars have tow ratings. The manufacturers give these tow ratings for a reason. Are you doubting that a manufacturer puts a 2,000lb rating on a 3,500 lb car yet puts a 10,000lb rating on a 4,000 lb truck? The people on the forum are echoing what the vehicle manufacturers are saying.

2) The difference in rating of a vehicle has little to do with the diameter of the disk. It has more to do with the size of the caliper, the pad surface and how the heat is removed from the brake components. If you have ever lifted a disk from a truck and compared the weight to the disk from a car, the difference is massive. The venting surface alone is more massive in a truck. Braking is just transferring one form of energy into another. In the case of brakes, it is transferring kinetic enrgy into thermal energy. The brakes can only absorb so much thermal energy before it can absorb no more. It has to dissipate this and the truck brakes are designed with this is mind.

3) Its not that the unibody will get all bent out of shape, its that the unibody structure is thinner so the strength of the unibody is distrubuted over a greater area. Great for making a car stiff but lousy at attaching a hitch. So...you create a hitch that now attaches to a lot more points. Guess what the draw back to that is? You just wiped out the designed in accident crush capability. See why they limit the tow rating?

4)Yes, its safer to have an older truck than a newer car for all the previous reasons.

As far as Tawoods comments are concerned...lets ask him what he tows with!

 

[tawood]

Re: some observations...

I tow (right now) with a chevy trailblazer....i didn't get it for towing, it is just "what I have".
I've also towed with a full size '08 Tundra (which if you believe the ads will tow anything)...this thing SUCKED at towing: by far the worst tow vehicle I've ever had!!! Brakes would overheat and fade, if you put over 200 lbs in the bed, with a 200 lbs hitch, the wheels would bottom on the wells, and the trans sounded like it was screaming (it was self desctructing, actually).
I've used a 2500 dodge (good towing). I've used a Dodge Neon (for a 1000 lb jet boat, and it was fine), a chevy colorado mid-sized pickup (sucked also), a GMC sonoma (ok, not great, but not bad), a chevy blazer (suprisingly very good), and a ford escort exp (triple motorcycle trailer, and it did awesome)!!!!
But the "pinacle" of my towing was using a Toyota Tacoma mini pickup to tow a 26' fifth wheel. Put over 180k on that truck, towed the fifth wheel from michigan to alaska and back too. Oh, and it was fine. Stopped good too (electric trailer brakes with enertia controller).

So whats your point?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: some observations...

I think you proved my point just fine.

 

[fsds123]

Re: some observations...

1) Yes a 3,500 lb car may not be safe/capable driving a 2,000 lb trailer. Reasons , besides brakes are suspension, transmission, and hitch attach points. Obviously depends on the particular car. All cars have tow ratings. The manufacturers give these tow ratings for a reason. Are you doubting that a manufacturer puts a 2,000lb rating on a 3,500 lb car yet puts a 10,000lb rating on a 4,000 lb truck? The people on the forum are echoing what the vehicle manufacturers are saying.

2) The difference in rating of a vehicle has little to do with the diameter of the disk. It has more to do with the size of the caliper, the pad surface and how the heat is removed from the brake components. If you have ever lifted a disk from a truck and compared the weight to the disk from a car, the difference is massive. The venting surface alone is more massive in a truck. Braking is just transferring one form of energy into another. In the case of brakes, it is transferring kinetic enrgy into thermal energy. The brakes can only absorb so much thermal energy before it can absorb no more. It has to dissipate this and the truck brakes are designed with this is mind.

3) Its not that the unibody will get all bent out of shape, its that the unibody structure is thinner so the strength of the unibody is distrubuted over a greater area. Great for making a car stiff but lousy at attaching a hitch. So...you create a hitch that now attaches to a lot more points. Guess what the draw back to that is? You just wiped out the designed in accident crush capability. See why they limit the tow rating?

4)Yes, its safer to have an older truck than a newer car for all the previous reasons.

As far as Tawoods comments are concerned...lets ask him what he tows with!

1) Yes a 3,500 lb car may not be safe/capable driving a 2,000 lb trailer. Reasons , besides brakes are suspension, transmission, and hitch attach points. Obviously depends on the particular car. All cars have tow ratings. The manufacturers give these tow ratings for a reason. Are you doubting that a manufacturer puts a 2,000lb rating on a 3,500 lb car yet puts a 10,000lb rating on a 4,000 lb truck? The people on the forum are echoing what the vehicle manufacturers are saying.

The manufacturers are entirely inconsistent when it comes to tow ratings. A few examples are the exact same car going from a 5000 to 2500 to 0 lb tow rating even though all the changes are improvements. (Check out the Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis) Also check out the exact same vehicles having no tow rating in the US, but having 4000+ lb tow ratings overseas.

2) The difference in rating of a vehicle has little to do with the diameter of the disk. It has more to do with the size of the caliper, the pad surface and how the heat is removed from the brake components. If you have ever lifted a disk from a truck and compared the weight to the disk from a car, the difference is massive. The venting surface alone is more massive in a truck. Braking is just transferring one form of energy into another. In the case of brakes, it is transferring kinetic enrgy into thermal energy. The brakes can only absorb so much thermal energy before it can absorb no more. It has to dissipate this and the truck brakes are designed with this is mind.

I have lifted and compared the weight of a car rotor and truck rotor,and guess what? On average there is no difference. Yes, on some vehicles there is a difference. Take a 5 series BMW for example, with 14.7 inc brakes, and compare it to a Ford f150. Guess which are bigger and thicker? As to the pad surface...that is 100% directly related to the rotor size. No sense in having larger pads than rotors. Now take these measurements in relation to vehicle weight. Why do you think cars stop so much quicker than trucks?


3) Its not that the unibody will get all bent out of shape, its that the unibody structure is thinner so the strength of the unibody is distrubuted over a greater area. Great for making a car stiff but lousy at attaching a hitch. So...you create a hitch that now attaches to a lot more points. Guess what the draw back to that is? You just wiped out the designed in accident crush capability. See why they limit the tow rating?

Seriously? So what are the designed accident crush capabilities of a truck? There aren't any? And that makes it safer for you and the other people on the road?

4)Yes, its safer to have an older truck than a newer car for all the previous reasons.

So it is safer to have a vehicles that handles worse, brakes worse, has less horsepower and torque, fewer gears, smaller brakes, no crumple zones, higher center of gravity etc etc???

As far as Tawoods comments are concerned...lets ask him what he tows with!

Sounds like he already answered.

 

[JimMH]

Re: some observations...

I take it you have never been pushed through an intersection by a boat in a light rain. I was in a 85 pontiac boneville, a vehicle with a frame not a unibody and rated to tow 3500lBs. Boat Mtr and trailer were 3200LBs. I was not going too fast and was going slower than normal. I have never had that problem with a truck or full size SUV.

 

[JimS123]

Re: some observations...

This is all very simple. Don't need to even have to ask. Contact the manufacturer or whatever vehicle you want to tow with to find out the towing specs. Then stay within those limits.

Just like the yellow plaque on the boat. If it says 90 HP max, why bother asking if a 100 HP motor will be OK.

 

[JimS123]

Re: some observations...

I take it you have never been pushed through an intersection by a boat in a light rain. I was in a 85 pontiac boneville, a vehicle with a frame not a unibody and rated to tow 3500lBs. Boat Mtr and trailer were 3200LBs. I was not going too fast and was going slower than normal. I have never had that problem with a truck or full size SUV.

Did the car have all season tires and did the trailer have brakes?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: some observations...

Sounds like he already answered.

Yes...trucks!

Bottom line, most cars are not rated to tow the loads that people are asking about. Not sure what your question is then. Are you saying that you should exceed what the manufacturer recommends?

As far as rotor/pad size is concerned, how come the front and rear rotors of my truck are the identical size yet the rear pads are half the size of the fronts.

My Lexus GS300 rotors weigh probably a third of what the front rotors of my 1/2 Ton Chevy truck weigh. My Lexus rotors are probably similar to the BMW 5 series since the cars weigh approximately the same.

Curious about the reason for your rant. Did someone advise you not to use your current tow vehicle to tow what you are currently towing? I looked back at some of your posts from the previous year and you are pretty passionate about this subject for some reason. I would be way more than interested why.

 

[wildspeed]

Re: some observations...

This is all very simple. Don't need to even have to ask. Contact the manufacturer or whatever vehicle you want to tow with to find out the towing specs. Then stay within those limits.

.

Like I said before only in North America......

If you buy a Chrysler 300C in the USA tow rating is 2000lbs, you buy the same USA made car in Australia or Europe and the tow rating jumps to 3500lbs for the v6/v8 and 4300lbs for the Diesel.......

And since when heavy parts brake make it be better brakes......
weight is the enemy

 

[bruceb58]

Re: some observations...

And since when heavy parts brake make it be better brakes......
weight is the enemy

Actually, heat is the enemy! The problem is when you brake a smaller mass will reach temp faster. You then have to dissipate the heat. The larger brakes typically have a larger finned area between the surfaces as well.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: some observations...

Oh man am I getting sick and tired of these mechanically challanged people whining about cars europe and towing....

C'mon what the heck does a semi tractor have to do with a car.... the difference in bumper towing capability of a full frame car vs a truck is NOT as much in the materials used in the construction but rather the difference is in the design and tuning... higher spring rates heavier shocks heavier bump stops heavier brakes etc

It has been said that it COULD damaage the structure of a unibody car to overload it towing..... It was not (that I have seen) ever said that a unibody (or any other) car could not safely and without damage be used to tow a load reasonable for the vehicle.

It isn't about moving the load it is about CONTROLLING the load..... yes indeed you can tow with a car but a truck is engineered to tow.... yes there are clunkers out there but owning an 08 pickup that was junk doesn't mean that cars are great for huge loads....

ok so you can tow more in europe.... SO WHAT you can get a hooker in canada.... let a cop see you try that here and let us know how it works out for ya.

As stated above.... read your manual... follow that..... if you choose to ignore it don't waste your time trying to get the more experienced here to tell you how much smarter you are than the rest of us

If in doubt go bigger..... You could err a long way on getting too big of a tow rig with no serious ill effects but if you end up just a little too small it could be your life....

Learn how to take advice..... Understand that there is nobody sitting at home laughing histerically thinking about how badly we have screwed you by suggesting a safe method to tow..... Nobody is out to get you and we are offering FREE advice..... as such it does NOT come with a money back offer.

 

[F14CRAZY]

Re: some observations...

My tow car to my knowledge is rated for 7k lbs

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: some observations...

Actually, heat is the enemy! The problem is when you brake a smaller mass will reach temp faster. You then have to dissipate the heat. The larger brakes typically have a larger finned area between the surfaces as well.

Agree with the heat thing 100%
Back in Britain in the mountain areas of Wales there were emergency run off lanes at the bends on long steep decents for those that had ridden their brakes all the way down the hill, overheated them and experienced "brake fade" The lanes were usually full of deepish sand / shale mixture.
Sure beat driving off the edge of the mountain !!!
However if you geared down properly on the approach you hardly needed the brakes on the decent.

 

[JB]

Re: some observations...

Boy, is this thread full of hostility.

There is no value to coming in the door insulting everyone in sight or to replying to such worthless rantings with more insults.

Tow ratings of vehicles are very straightforward and objective.

Weights of boat, trailer, and add-ons are very easily determined.

You can always find some brain damaged know-it-all who will tell you whatever you want to do is okay. It is you and your pocketbook that are at risk. . .not his.

It is my sincere hope that you won't find him here.

 

[trendsetter240]

Re: some observations...

ok so you can tow more in europe.... SO WHAT you can get a hooker in canada.... let a cop see you try that here and let us know how it works out for ya.

lol..what the heck is that about?? Prostitution is not legal here..not sure where you got that idea.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: some observations...

Wow, this thread is going down the tubes pretty quick. Sorry I posted in it now !!!

 

[JB]

Re: some observations...

Yes, Ken. Agree. Closed