WOT question...

texanaustinite

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Re: WOT question...

I do have a 17p prop that I keep on the boat, just in case.

45auto, you're doing exactly what I want to be doing... using the 19p for tubing, skiing, etc., and a 21p or even a 23p for for cruising. I'll have to give it a try. Now to go steal one...errr, buy one. :D
 

Boatist

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Re: WOT question...

I have a 3.0 rated at 4200 to 4600 and have two props the 17 pitch turns 4600 WOT RPMS at 35 MPH. On a trip offshore out 26 miles and fishing till14:00 and back in will burn 18 galons of fuel. Total Mileage for the day will be very close to 70 miles and a mpg of 3.88.

Same type 19 pitch turns 4200 WOT RPMS at 38 MPH. On the same trip out 26 mile and fishing till 14:00 and back in will burn 15 gallons of fuel. Again the total mileage will be right at 70 miles and a mpg of 4.66.

Gas mileage and fuel use is running at a clean plane at speeds of 18 to 20 MPH and RPM in the 2500 to 3000 range.

So on my 21 foot Aluminum runabout with a 1980 3.0L 181 CI the 19 pitch prop is 3 mph faster and gets almost 1 more mile per gallon.

On Ocean trips always use the 19 pitch because we tend to travel a lot farther and make very few stops.

In insland rivers usually use the 17 pitch because trips tend to be short and lots more starts and stops. In the river usually a lot lighter also less weight form tackel and gear and one less person plus tank are normally not full.

This might give you some information you can use.

Ocean trips to Cordell Banks we are very heavy with 34 gallons of fuel 3 to 5 adults all the heavy weights for fishing 400 feet plus. Also have 6 gallons of fuel for the 15 HP Kicker.
 

QC

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Re: WOT question...

Boatist's data points out something I have been trying to explain for a while. Lower RPM and the same HP requires that the throttle is open wider for the same boat speed. Because RPM is different, there is some difference in parasitic losses; the alternator, water pump, oil pump, even the cam, crank, rods and pistons themselves cause some additional load at higher RPM. Damn parasites!! But the main reason that fuel economy is better is that the throttle is further open for the same horsepower output. His 20 MPH cruise requires the same amount of power regardless of the RPM. This assumes that the props are equally efficient, which of course, they are not . . . but still a good illustration.

If it were a diesel the economy difference would be primarily from the parasitic load change and would be much less between the two examples. Why? The main reason is they ain't got no stinkin' throttle . . . ;) Throttles increase pumping losses. You kinda need to think of an engine as a big air pump. If you choke it's air inlet (throttle), it has to work harder to pump the air.

BTW, this is not the same discussion as WOT which is about selecting propellers, but the fact remains that a throttled engine (Otto Cycle) is most efficient at wide open throttle. Not WOT RPM, but wide open throttle. When we apply large Otto engines (four stroke, spark plugs and a throttle) to a generator or a pump, say a 1500 bhp Natural Gas engine, they are setup for a reasonable RPM and wide open throttle . . .
 

Boatist

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Re: WOT question...

Fuel mileage is better because engine is geared higher and the throttle is not open as much. It is like putting your car in overdrive.
Speed of 18 to 20 is where my boat reaches a natural clean plane with motor not trimed up or down and no trim tabs down.

On the way out the weather will change a couple of times so change trim tabs setting for the best safe ride. We only go the 26 miles on the best days in our little 21 foot boat.
 

45Auto

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Re: WOT question...

QC is correct. Your throttle is open wider to get the higher mileage at the lower RPM with the bigger prop. It takes a given amount of power to drive your boat at a certain speed. The amount of POWER required at a given speed is independent of the prop size or engine RPM, it depends on the drag of the boat in the water.

It takes the same amount of power, let's just say 25 horsepower for example, to drive your boat at 30 mph no matter what prop you're using or what RPM your engine is turning. A gasoline engine is about 25% efficient. That means for your engine to produce 25 horsepower the amount of gasoline it burns actually contains the equivalent of 100 horsepower. The more efficient your engine is, the more of that available horsepower you get out of the gas to the prop. Of that 75 horsepower you aren't seeing, 50 is going into heating up your cooling water, 5 is going into making noise in the mufflers and exhaust pipes, and 20 is being used to pull air past your throttle valve.

The throttle valve is what controls the amount of air going through the engine, which in turn controls the amount of fuel through the carburetor venturi (fuel injection uses a sensor to measure the air flow and inject the right amount of gas). Obviously, if the engine is turning LESS RPM, it takes a bigger throttle opening to get the SAME amount of air and fuel through it in a given amount of time as at a higher RPM. Remember, only a specific amount of power available in each gallon of gas so to make the same power we need the same amount of gas.

This brings us to QC's description of pumping losses. Put your fingers together and put them over your mouth. Try to suck in a lungful of air through the cracks in your fingers. Notice how hard it is? Takes power to pull that air through those cracks. Now take your hand away and suck in a lungful. Much easier isn't it? In your engine, that power you were using to suck past the closed fingers has to come out of the gasoline the engine is burning. With the engine producing the same amount of power at 2 different RPM's, it has to use less of the available power sucking air through the bigger opening at the lower RPM. So it's more efficient.

To relate this to the above example only using a bigger prop, less RPM, and wider throttle opening, then our engine now only has to use 10 HP instead of 20 sucking air past the throttle valve. So to put 25 HP into the propeller it only has to use the equivalent gasoline that contains 90 HP. We put 25 into the prop to drive the boat, 50 into heat, 5 into noise, and only 10 into suction losses. What this means is that we only need the amount of gas that contains 90 HP, not 100. The boat still requires the same amount of power to drive it (25 HP), we are just using less gas trying to pull the air past our fingers! The throttle opening is bigger to get the required amount of air – thus fuel – through the engine at the lower RPM. Although the throttle opening is bigger, the engine is actually using less air and fuel since it's turning a lower RPM. The total VOLUME of air per minute is less since the engine only requires the amount of air to produce 90 total HP instead of 100.

If you have a car with a standard transmission and one of those "upshift indicator" lights that help you get better gas mileage, you will notice that they have you upshifting at very low RPM. This is because the fuel economy comes from decreasing pumping losses - bigger throttle opening (less restriction in the air flow). Same reason free-flowing exhaust helps fuel economy. You get the best efficiency in a throttled engine with the throttle wide open, just above the point the engine is "lugging".

If you don't think your boat is using a bigger throttle opening at the lower RPM at the same speed, try this in your car with a standard transmission. Climb a hill in 2nd gear at 30 mph - this is like your boat at 30 with the 17 pitch. Now go climb the same hill in 4th gear at 30 mph - this is like your boat at 30 with the 19 pitch. Don't be surprised if you have to floor it. I will guarantee you it will take more throttle in 4th than it did in 2nd. And even though the throttle is open wider, you are going the same speed and are getting better mileage in 4th. Your total OUTPUT power is the same, you're just using less power internally driving the engine.

Boatist, if you have a car with a cruise control and overdrive, put it in cruise and let it come to a constant speed, on a level road with the OD off. Rest your foot very lightly on the accelerator. Now turn on the overdrive and when the car shifts up into OD you will feel the gas pedal move down slightly to maintain the same speed. The same thing is happening on your boat.

I wish it did work the other way. We could just keep shifting up into higher and higher gears, using less and less throttle, till the throttle is completely closed and the engine isn't running. Infinite gas mileage!

This is somewhat simplified but hopefully will help illustrate the basic principle of engine pumping losses.
 
Last edited:

QC

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Re: WOT question...

:) Kewl. This is literally the first time in almost three years that someone has backed up these facts about throttles . . .
 

Boatist

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Re: WOT question...

The better fuel mileage is not because the throttle is open more, it is because the engine turn 400 revolutions less each minute and goes the same distance. That is 1600 times each minute that no fule was put in the cylinder and still went the same distance. That fuel is saved in the tank.

Fewer reveloutions to cover the same distance = 1600 fuel shots saved and better mileage.

If you want to run WOT to get better mileage go ahead go ahead, Just do not ask for a tow in from running out of fuel.

Back when we could fish out at Cordell banks we went lots of times. Since we have a 34 gallon we always start with a full tank and also fill up when we get back in case we go the next day. I always practice the 1/3 rule for saftey. 1/3 out, 1/3 back, and 1/3 in reserve for that day when you can not come back on plane or have to quarter swells. I tried both props over and over and the higher pitch get better mileage every time.
 

Boatist

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Re: WOT question...

The better mileage is not from the throttle being open more.
The better mileage is from the the engine not turning 400 revelutions every minute and still going the same distance. 400 revelutions not turned means 1,600 fewer time to fill the cylinder with fuel and air. That fuel not put in the cylinder is saved in the tank. Fuel saved in the tank but going the same distance = better mileage.

If you want to run WOT for fuel savings go ahead just do not ask me for a tow back when you run out of fuel.

Back when we could fish out at Cordell Banks we went very offten. Cordell Banks is out 26 miles offshore form Bodega Bay. With a 34 gallon tank we would always start with a full tank and when get back would fill the tank in case we decided to go the next day. I tried both props many times and the 2 inch higher pitch always used 3 gallons less fuel.
 

45Auto

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Re: WOT question...

The reason NOT to run your boat WOT for fuel economy is because drag goes up exponentially with speed. You lose more in drag then you gain in efficiency.

Not much point in replying to this post past this point! If you can get the same power into the water at a lower RPM with less throttle, go for it! Although if you can do that, I don't understand why you don't just put a 150" pitch prop on it and idle out there at 30 mph ...........
 

QC

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Re: WOT question...

Boatist, dude . . . This is why I keep posting this stupidity. The fact is it is true. You cannot make the power necessary to plane your boat from those 1600 fewer shots if they are not bigger shots . . . If they are bigger shots, you need more air. The only way to get more air is to open the throttle more. Period.

Now, I am gonna pull out the big gun. I don't use this one very often, but here goes. I learned this stupidity from Dr. N. John Beck. He is the founder of our company, he used to be the VP of Engine development at Cummins, prior to that White Motors and here's the one that should clinch it: he is also a past President of SAE. I kinda sorta think he gets it, so when he talks I listen . . . ;)
 

45Auto

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Re: WOT question...

I think we're beating our heads against the wall QC! Too much to explain easily here. It just goes against "what they know" that a wider throttle opening will give better fuel efficiency. All kinds of references are available if they're really interested. Here's a couple of paragraphs from

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,21210480-5001701,00.html

"Many people, particularly those who have been driving for a long time, think that by driving with lower throttle openings but higher engine speeds they are saving fuel and putting less stress on the car.

"In fact the opposite is true. Lower engine speeds and GREATER THROTTLE - OPENING - that is, a higher gear ? is far more efficient so get to the higher gear quickly and stay there as much as you can."

And any one that thinks they back off on the throttle to maintain the same speed when they shift to a higher gear has a very un-educated throttle foot!
 

Boatist

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Re: WOT question...

My first post here was to let Texan know what he can expect by going to a higher pitch prop. I belive he can run a 21 and a 23 and stay in the engine recommended WOT rpm range if they are the same type of prop. Both will gain him speed and fuel mileage. My props are both omc Stainless Steel double cupped and very near the same diameter. The 19 is 3 MPH faster than the 17 and gets better fuel mileage. Hole shot is a little bit slower but still very good.

My boat does make MORE HP at the SAME THROTTLE postion with the Higher pitch prop.
17 pitch WOT = 35 MPH. 19 pitch WOT = 38 MPH.

Texan I am sorry to have gotten involved in this meanless debate in your thread.
 

QC

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Re: WOT question...

Boatist,

I have always been respectful and in agreement with your posts. Heck you and I are Helm adjustable tab gurus, and fight ignorance of the benefits together often. I began this "meaningless debate" by commenting positively about your data. There is no reason for you to ignore and disregard information that has been provided to you by engine professionals. Dude, this is what I do for a living, and have for 30 years. The reason I keep up this "meaningless debate" is precisely why you are fighting it so hard. It is misunderstood.

Kevin
 

Texasmark

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Re: WOT question...

Again 45 and QC appreciate the info. Very informative.
===========

My definition of WOT is to firewall the throttle......you push the handle as far forward as possible opening the butterflies in the carbs as far as they will go (parallel to the venturi air flow) and then trim for max mph.

===========

Gotta share this with you.

I buy this used boat; 17' alum boat, 90 hp engine. So I have my virgin (1st) launch. I motor out to the end of the no wake zone and firewall it. Darn near snapped my neck. Sucker was outta da hole before I could blink and the tach was on 7500. Fast as I could I chopped the throttle. WOW and the rig has been run with this setup for 2 years.

The engine was equipped with a 17P prop. Due to the decrease, on my particular hull, in drag as a function of speed, I went to a calculated 21P and had to go on to a 24P to get the WOT max rpm's down to 5600 (engine rating is 5500).

So I had to laugh about the comments about you gotta test what you have to know where you need to go.

Mark
 

Texasmark

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Re: WOT question...

I about fell out of my chair laughing at your comment 45 about idling with a 150P prop. That was indeed funny.

Mark
 

Texasmark

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Re: WOT question...

45 and QC this is very similar to your other post and extremely informative; just another way of saying the same thing and, as you know, if you say it enough times in enough ways, we'll get the message. As I said, I spent my whole life in reverse order because my logic was concentrated on the wrong thing.

Do thank you for taking the time to keep hammering the point home to hard heads like me. Grin

Mark
 

QC

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Re: WOT question...

Yeah Mark, this one prompted 45 to post the other . . . I love the topic and all of this has taken a 30 year career in the engine biz to wrap my head around. I wish I had a copy of my first little training book I got from Caterpillar. Although it left out the throttle discussion, it did make a wonderful comparison of diesel and gasoline (Otto) engines. It was basically designed for any new hires, from secretaries, to parts people to execs. It was a simple cartoon book, probably 25 pages. It was titled "The Engine Book" and I can trace all of my core understanding of engines back to it. I read it in "my office", which was in those days . . . well . . . you know :D
 
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