Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

[bsh21wash]

My buddy seems to think it's smart to use a car starter in a boat...I know there is differences just want to know what so I can convince him...thanks

 

[wire2]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

A marine approved starter has better seals/gaskets to keep water out & uses more corrosive resistant materials.

But the primary consideration is safety; there's deliberate design differences to contain sparks that *could* ignite fuel vapor in the the bilge.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

He is wrong, wrong, wrong!........
It will bolt on just fine, but a marine rated starter has special spark suppression capabilities that will prevent ignition of gas fumes that can potentially cause an explosion......
Using anything electrical that is not marine rated is both illegal & dangerous......
The Coast Guard will ticket you for non compliance.......
Not to mention the risk of injury or death.....
Ask him if he would risk his friends or family because he saved a hundred bucks......
I have seen with my own eyes this scenario.....
It blew his engine cover 30 feet into the air, immediate 4 foot flames & burned to the water line & sank in 10 minutes.....
Luckily there were other boats near by & we pulled the occupants out of the water.....
Don't do it!.......​

 

[45Auto]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

From Boat Parts Info:

In an enclosed engine compartment where volatile fumes exist, any stray spark could cause a catastrophic explosion injuring or killing the boat's passengers and any surrounding people. In order to prevent this, a marine starter is constructed with internal shielding to contain any sparks or stray electricity that could travel into the bell housing or bilge where gasoline fumes may be present. Another benefit from this shielding is that it protects the back half of the starter motor from moisture and contaminants which will decrease the life of the unit. If the replacement starter you are buying does not have a tag or sticker on it that states it has been manufactured to SAE J1171 standards, you should ask the parts man if the product really is an approved marine grade starter. Make every attempt to be sure that you are not being sold an automotive starter for your boat. To receive this certification, the manufacturer of this starter must submit a sample to pass three separate tests; each performed fifty times. The tests include operation in an enclosed explosive atmosphere, high temperature tests and induced ignition tests.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

We all make the assumption that this boat is a closed engine compartment type boat.

If it's an exposed engine, an automotive starter, alternator, distributor, dry stacks, etc is "OK"

If it's a closed engine compartment. well, BOOM!



Cheers,



Rick

My buddy seems to think it's smart to use a car starter in a boat...I know there is differences just want to know what so I can convince him...thanks

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

We all make the assumption that this boat is a closed engine compartment type boat.

If it's an exposed engine, an automotive starter, alternator, distributor, dry stacks, etc is "OK"

If it's a closed engine compartment. well, BOOM!



Cheers,



Rick

I disagree with that.....
I'd like to see what the CG regs say.....

 

[Bondo]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

I disagree with that.....
I'd like to see what the CG regs say.....

Ayuh,......... I'll Disagree as well..............

Even an Open motored boat has a Bilge,..............
And,.........
Gas Fumes are Heavier than air,+ will sink into the bilge,.......
Hit the Starter,+ BOOM......................

 

[oops!]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

if your friend is pig headed, like i am sometimes.
print this page and show him. the people that have answered you, are not "backyard boyz"
they know what they are talking about and i agree with them fully.

as bondo said, "fuel fumes hug the ground" it is also why you ars supposed to run the blower for a full five minits before starting a marine engine.

these rules and parts (marine) were made cause people have died.

hope these posts clear up any confusion
good luck

oops

 

[ron7000]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

go buy a starter at the marine dealer. then go buy the equivalent from autozone for that engine and pull both apart and find out what exactly makes one marine. You may find, like everything else in the world today, it's exaggerated and a lot of bull*****, and the information people perpetuate is only the tip of the iceberg.

rules and marine parts are not around because people have died, they are around because of money. people die for many different reasons, most of the time because they're stupid and irresponsible. the marine industry is a business, and don't kid yourself thinking marine parts because they are more expensive or have a sticker on them are better and safer, or for that matter significantly different. And there's no better way to sell or back a product than to climb on board the safety wagon and pump out as much safety related reasons as possible. When people try to tell you things like they are specialized, have internal shielding, better gaskets, spark suppression, make them show you specifically the shielding, gasket material, suppression mechanism etc. Most of the time it's a flat out lie. The marine vs auto starter thing refuses to die, you would think if it was so so truthful that marine dealers would have a display case on their counter of a marine starter vs an equivalent auto starter. but they don't.

If a marine starter is more corrosion resistant, has better seals and so forth, how come everybody goes through a starter on a boat every few years? considering where a starter in a car is mounted and how it's exposed to the environment, they last pretty freaking long considering how they're labeled as inferior.

If you look at a typical PMGR starter today, they are mostly compliant with j1171; they are fully sealed and the commutator end is sealed. The automotive starter will blow your boat up mentality comes from, aside from ignorance, the old days of direct drive starters where the case had vents, or was open at the pinion end, or the cap on the commutator end had vents. Then yeah that's obviously not a good idea having vents in the cap near the brushes where there's an arc. All they do to marinize it is change the outer casing so it is sealed and fumes are less likely to ignite when the brushes arc on the commutator.

i love how responsibility and knowing wtf your doing is thrown out the window today. Instead of taking the point of view of my gov't and all the rules and laws will save me i need a marine starter so I don't blow up, how about getting a clue, knowing how your **** works and making sure you don't have a phucking gas leak and fumes in your bilge before starting the engine?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

Hmmmmmmmmm,.........

go buy a starter at the marine dealer. then go buy the equivalent from autozone for that engine and pull both apart and find out what exactly makes one marine. (Ayuh, been there, done that.)You may find, like everything else in the world today, it's exaggerated and a lot of bull*****, (Ayuh, Exaggerated, Maybe,.. Bullship,.? Nope.)and the information people perpetuate is only the tip of the iceberg.(Ayuh, cause we're talking to a cast of Millions, Not a room full of Mechanics.)

rules and marine parts are not around because people have died, they are around because of money. people die for many different reasons, most of the time because they're stupid and irresponsible. the marine industry is a business, and don't kid yourself thinking marine parts because they are more expensive or have a sticker on them are better and safer, or for that matter significantly different. And there's no better way to sell or back a product than to climb on board the safety wagon and pump out as much safety related reasons as possible.(Ayuh,..... I'm with ya, but only this far.) When people try to tell you things like they are specialized, have internal shielding, better gaskets, spark suppression, make them show you specifically the shielding, gasket material, suppression mechanism etc. Most of the time it's a flat out lie. The marine vs auto starter thing refuses to die, you would think if it was so so truthful that marine dealers would have a display case on their counter of a marine starter vs an equivalent auto starter. but they don't.(Ayuh, That sounds like You don't know your azz from a hole in the ground.)

If you look at a typical PMGR starter today, they are mostly compliant with j1171; they are fully sealed and the commutator end is sealed. The automotive starter will blow your boat up mentality comes from, aside from ignorance, the old days of direct drive starters where the case had vents, or was open at the pinion end, or the cap on the commutator end had vents. Then yeah that's obviously not a good idea having vents in the cap near the brushes where there's an arc. All they do to marinize it is change the outer casing so it is sealed and fumes are less likely to ignite when the brushes arc on the commutator.(Ayuh,... Unfortunately, Most of the Viewers here don't understand that we're talking about 3 Very Different Starters here,+ Only the Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction Starter is the same, Automotive,or Marine.)

i love how responsibility and knowing wtf your doing is thrown out the window today. Instead of taking the point of view of my gov't and all the rules and laws will save me.
(Ayuh,.... And don't be calling Me no damn Liberal,....)

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

Well, Kudos to Bondo and Haut for keeping me and others straight!! (& I mean it btw!)

I hate it when I mis-speak with out having all the "stuff" to back it up.

I (incorrectly, I might add) lumped many things together where they probably shouldn't be lumped!

While it's true that one MUST have ignition protected "things" in a boat they're not always required if they can be protected from ignitable fuel "vapors" as indicated below.


It appears that people that operate boats with "automotive parts" that do not have enclosed engine compartments (Or ANY engine compartment ) where the engine is hanging out in the breeze, seem to comply with the 183.410. They also do not have to have a blower or water cooled exhaust system either. The water cops on most lakes don't seem to be that interested in checking to see if the starter or alt has an SAE J1171 tag on them.

That would probably come after the insurance company comes calling to see what they could find in the burned out wreckage to get them out of paying the claim!!


I'll add that I would NEVER use a NON-marine starter, alt or other engine part or even suggest that someone else do the same!


Cheers,



Rick



The following is excerpted from http://www.gpoaccess.gov/ This gets you to the page I copied it from
183.410 Ignition protection.

top (a) Each electrical component must not ignite a propane gas and air mixture that is 4.25 to 5.25 percent propane gas by volume surrounding the electrical component when it is operated at each of its manufacturer rated voltages and current loadings, unless it is isolated from gasoline fuel sources, such as engines, and valves, connections, or other fittings in vent lines, fill lines, distribution lines or on fuel tanks, in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.
(b) An electrical component is isolated from a gasoline fuel source if:
(1) A bulkhead that meets the requirements of paragraph (c) of this section is between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source;
(2) The electrical component is:
(i) Lower than the gasoline fuel source and a means is provided to prevent fuel and fuel vapors that may leak from the gasoline fuel source from becoming exposed to the electrical component; or
(ii) Higher than the gasoline fuel source and a deck or other enclosure is between it and the gasoline fuel source; or
(3) The space between the electrical component and the gasoline fuel source is at least two feet and the space is open to the atmosphere. (emphasis mine!)

(c) Each bulkhead required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section must:
(1) Separate the electrical component from the gasoline fuel source and extend both vertically and horizontally the distance of the open space between the fuel source and the ignition source;
(2) Resist a water level that is 12 inches high or one-third of the maximum height of the bulkhead, whichever is less, without seepage of more than one-quarter fluid ounce of fresh water per hour; and
(3) Have no opening located higher than 12 inches or one-third the maximum height of the bulkhead, whichever is less, unless the opening is used for the passage of conductors, piping, ventilation ducts, mechanical equipment, and similar items, or doors, hatches, and access panels, and the maximum annular space around each item or door, hatch or access panel must not be more than one-quarter inch.
?

 

[Maclin]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

My thoughts whenever I hear the question "Why not use an equivalent automotive starter in an I/O".....



KaVroooom sounds way better than KaBOOM

 

[45Auto]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

From Ron7000:

All they do to marinize it is change the outer casing so it is sealed and fumes are less likely to ignite when the brushes arc on the commutator.

You don't think that is a significant difference if your bilge is full of gas fumes????????

 

[ron7000]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

yeah it would be a significant difference but a bilge full of fumes is still a bilge full of fumes. What's the point then, are you still going to turn the key to start?

If it weren't for the cost difference of a marine starter, nobody would G.A.F.
and you would never hear people continue to ask "can i use an auto starter".
So, oh master marine technician with 13,846 posts from chaumont bay, with that many posts you must know why the marine industry charges so much more? What exactly is the difference?
Anybody can say in general:
"it's safer"
"it has ignition protection"
"it has shielding"
"it has special spark suppression capabilities"
"because it meets sae j1171"
"because it meets coast guard regulations"
"it has better seals and gaskets"

can anybody specifically show any of this?
what exactly gives the starter it's spark or ignition suppression capabilities?
what exactly is the sae j1171 standard? Why should I believe in this standard if I don't know exactly what it is, and how do I even know the starter meets the standard? I should just trust the marine dealer because he says so and it has a sticker on it? Hell, half the time everybody here is posting because either a marine dealer/mechanic hasn't fixed their problem or they don't half faith in them... why is that?

and why do you say i don't know my pooper from a hole in the ground? because i said most of the time it's a flat out lie,
or because I said a marine dealer should have a starter comparison on their counter?
I really don't understand why you said that, where am i wrong?

The guy up top said he knew there were differences but wanted to know what. Anybody can say there are differences but as far as i'm concerned nobody has really *shown* anything. And generally what people say is not true all of the time. What on an "automotive" starter makes it a hazard? Is that the same for every automotive starter?

you said "Most of the Viewers here don't understand that we're talking about 3 Very Different Starters here"
so why aren't the things people don't understand explained? Isn't that the whole point of this board?

 

[45Auto]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

From Ron7000;

yeah it would be a significant difference but a bilge full of fumes is still a bilge full of fumes. What's the point then, are you still going to turn the key to start?

I doubt if anybody would turn the key if they KNEW there was fumes in the bilge. But if a dried-out fuel line developed a small crack you were unaware of it would probably be nice to have a marine starter. Do a search on GOOGLE for "boat explosion" and you will literally get dozens of pages where people wish they had not turned the key.

from Ron7000:

Anybody can say in general:
"it's safer"
"it has ignition protection"
"it has shielding"
"it has special spark suppression capabilities"
"because it meets sae j1171"
"because it meets coast guard regulations"
"it has better seals and gaskets"

can anybody specifically show any of this?

Don't have any pictures I can show you handy but I can describe the differences:

A proper marine starter is sealed at both ends,has rubber coated or (varnished) field coils,brass terminals(not copper) and is painted inside as well as outside.If you look into the drive end housing,there should be a plate that carries a seal to seperate the bendix from the rest of the starter.There should be a rubber gasket between the solenoid and the housing and the solenoid cover should be gasketed as well.

You don't have to trust your marine parts dealer. Most of these differences would be visible if you look at the starter.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

I'm with Ron, I want to have the 3 types of starters explained, the differences explained, and pictures would be Great.

Thanks for that description 45.

Why all the concern over gas fumes, when everyone is running their bilge blower the 4 minutes before starting, all the fumes would be gone?!

 

[Don S]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

Why all the concern over gas fumes, when everyone is running their bilge blower the 4 minutes before starting, all the fumes would be gone?!

The gas fumes may not be gone if you still have an inch of gas in your bilge because your tank leaks and no one ever opens their engine hatches to see if there is water or gas in the bilge.
Run em till they puke or kill someone that doesn't know they are boarding a death trap.
There are laws for building homes also. You may not like them, but you have to live by them. Same with a boat.
Just because some poster wants proof, and doesn't get what he wants doesn't mean there isn't a real danger using automotive parts to replace marine parts. Do you feel lucky?
The Coast Guard sets the standards, and the manufactures have to meet those standards, like it or not.

Call the CG, or ABYC for an explanation, asking on a forum with a bunch of DIYers probably isn't going to get you any exact information.
And trust me, certified techs don't have answers to every WHY question either. The WHY is all done by the engineers and the rule book makers.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

I want to have the 3 types of starters explained, the differences explained, and pictures would be Great.

Ayuh,.......

Here is a traditional 10lb. Starter, used from 1955 up to recent times,.....

And,........
Here is a Permant Magnet Starter,......

Both of these Starters need to have All of the features explained by 45 Auto to be a Marine Rated Starter....

A proper marine starter is sealed at both ends,has rubber coated or (varnished) field coils,brass terminals(not copper) and is painted inside as well as outside.If you look into the drive end housing,there should be a plate that carries a seal to seperate the bendix from the rest of the starter.There should be a rubber gasket between the solenoid and the housing and the solenoid cover should be gasketed as well.

This is a Permant Magnet, Gear Reduction Starter,........

As noted by Ron,.....
This Starter by the nature of it's Design, is Sealed....
The Gear Reduction transmission takes the place of the SSteel Plate that I hi-lighted in 45's description.......
That doesn't mean it's got the better coatings,+ base metals,.....
It just means the the Sparks are contained inside it's housing,+ it Won't Blow Up your boat...........

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

Excellent Bond-o. I think I'll convert your post to .pdf and save it my library of boat info. Even if Don S doesn't think you could have it all right, I'll take your pictures and 45Auto's descriptions as a great reference

Thanks!!!

 

[Cptkid570]

Re: Whats the difference between a car and a boat starter?

I don't want to advertise for ebasicpower.com, but that is where I got my starter... and it was like $109. So, we aren't really even talking about saving $100, you are talking about saving like $50 by going with an auto starter.