what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Thanks.
I've worked with many Holleys and am not partial to them...very finicky, less fuel efficient, but do give better performance when properly adjusted. It's been awhile since I've had my hands on one. Rochester are a different story. I can take them apart and put 'em back together blindfolded.
I went and looked at a Dualjet sitting on the workbench and just don't see the difference. I thought I was missing something...maybe a channel from the bowl to the top of the venturi?

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I'm not gunning for anybody, the thing is, there are marine carbs and automotive carbs, there are TBI systems that have already passed USCG tests and are now used on boat. Some aren't.
Just because YOU THINK something is fine on a marine engine because of your thought processes is neither here nor there. Your opinions don't couint.
Personally, I don't keep engine parts under the kitchen table, bubble wrapped or otherwise.
No wonder so many people get blowed up and set on fire in boats. Too many out there that could care less about the regulations that try to minimize fire and explosions on boats.

I normally don't keep engine parts under the kitchen table either. However, when they got here in the mail, that's where they ended up. Where the parts are currently sitting has nothing to do with whether said parts are going to "blow me up".

"Regulations" TRY to do a lot of things. They also fail to do a lot of things, and tend to interfere with a lot of things as well; including a lot of things that would actually be SAFER, cleaner, and generally better than the status quo. Just because it's a regulation, does not mean that it's necessarily right.

Just because THEY didn't say it was "safe", doesn't mean it isn't. It just means that they didn't get a cheque .

Going through a lot of bureaucracy, and paying more money (read De Facto taxes) is NOT going to do anything to make ANYBODY more safe, more intelligent, or anything else except more light in the wallet.

If you can demonstrate any difference in safety (not the illusion of safety of a USCG stamp) between a truck TBI system that can be pulled out of any salvage yard for <$200, VS a "marine" tbi which costs 10 times that, I'll send you a nice big juicy Omaha steak.

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

The difference between 'Approved for marine use' and automotive is exactly that.... Automotive has NOT been approved for marine use... Even if the parts are identical, it doesn't matter....

There may be parts inside that are subtly different that makes the difference between Marine and NOT marine.... That is NOT up to you to decide...

Don't be a fool and think that automotive parts, even if they have the same part number on the outside and look the same, are acceptable in a marine environment.... THEY ARE NOT!!!

Chris.......

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

"Regulations" TRY to do a lot of things. They also fail to do a lot of things, and tend to interfere with a lot of things as well; including a lot of things that would actually be SAFER, cleaner, and generally better than the status quo. Just because it's a regulation, does not mean that it's necessarily right.

My experience with 'regulations' is that we have a regulation because someone, somewhere got dead or seriously hurt by doing something that wasn't covered by a regulation... So a new one gets born, or an old one gets amended.

Just because THEY didn't say it was "safe", doesn't mean it isn't. It just means that they didn't get a cheque .

Going through a lot of bureaucracy, and paying more money (read De Facto taxes) is NOT going to do anything to make ANYBODY more safe, more intelligent, or anything else except more light in the wallet.

I think that is just plain cynical....

If you can demonstrate any difference in safety (not the illusion of safety of a USCG stamp) between a truck TBI system that can be pulled out of any salvage yard for <$200, VS a "marine" tbi which costs 10 times that, I'll send you a nice big juicy Omaha steak.

I don't have to demonstrate anything.... If it doesn't have "Approved for Marine use" on it, it doesn't belong in a boat!!!.... THAT'S THE RULES... Not my rules, the rules of the government YOU elected....

Chris...........

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

That's what part numbers MEAN.

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

That's what part numbers MEAN.

Not always....

Case in point... Merc inline 6... used the same block for the 115 and the 150hp... SAME PART NUMBER!!! Different pistons make 35hp difference... And even then, the difference in the pistons was very subtle.

Chris..........

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

My experience with 'regulations' is that we have a regulation because someone, somewhere got dead or seriously hurt by doing something that wasn't covered by a regulation... So a new one gets born, or an old one gets amended.

Either that, or somebody's not getting enough money in their pockets... It's pretty amazing what you can accomplish in this country by greasing the right palms.

I think that is just plain cynical....

Maybe, but does that mean I'm wrong?

I don't have to demonstrate anything...

I didn't say you DID have to do ANYTHING. That offer was to Don S. and was just that, an OFFER. He doesn't have to do anything either, unless he wants and delicious steak.

If it doesn't have "Approved for Marine use" on it, it doesn't belong in a boat!!!.... THAT'S THE RULES... Not my rules, the rules of the government YOU elected...
Chris...........

Don't remember voting for any USCG bureaucrats What's the election process for those guys again?

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Not always....

Case in point... Merc inline 6... used the same block for the 115 and the 150hp... SAME PART NUMBER!!! Different pistons make 35hp difference... And even then, the difference in the pistons was very subtle.

Chris..........

Those are casting numbers. The part number was in reference to the block. Betcha stamping wasn't the same, was it?

 

[achris]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Those are casting numbers. The part number was in reference to the block. Betcha stamping wasn't the same, was it?

Yes it is!! The block is the same... Same casting number, same part number... It's what goes inside that makes the difference... And you CAN NOT tell by looking at the outside...

Ergo... It may look the same, it may have the same part number... Doesn't mean it is the same..... Without stripping it and inspecting each part YOU CAN NOT TELL.... Same for an EFI system... Have you looked inside and inspected each and every part?

Chris...........

 

[Don S]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Don't remember voting for any USCG bureaucrats What's the election process for those guys again?

What a childish comment.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

You all have me curious about my TBI setup on my 97 Mercruiser. I've been all over that thing, and the ignition, and I don't remember seeing any tag anywhere with anything close to "Approved for Marine Use" or "USCG approved" or any marine numbers on it. If it ever stops raining here, I am going to go over it all again.

 

[Don S]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

The manufactures have a list of approved parts they can use and sell. Each and every part does not have a number on it to prove it.
There is a warning in OEM service and owners manuals similar to the one below.

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

You're firm on your position and I respect that.
However, that warning is arguably vague and could be interpreted many different ways.
Since the USCG carb test is general enough, one could theoretically get a Briggs and Stratton carb mounted on a 130 to pass. It could be interpreted that adding a fish finder or radio is unsafe. Obviously these scenarios are ridiculous.
The man said he had 20 years of automotive mechanics under his belt. Yeah, I know that's not marine, but one would think he was capable of determining whether or not the modification he poses was safe, in this case that boils down to not leaking. He obviously makes decisions everyday concerning the safety of drivers on land which has significantly greater risks. You stand a 2312 times greater chance of dying in a car accident than dying on your boat due to fire/explosion. The auto industry has the same warnings (e.g. "Use only genuine Mopar parts"). It would interesting to know if you take you car to the dealer for every little repair and maintenance item so as to conform this as well. Wouldn't want you to blow up waiting for a red light.
I personally have made electrical modifications to my boat which include replacing the ignition system with a Pertronix CDI module, adding electrical accessories (sonar, GPS, radio, etc.) all of which are technically not USCG approved. I seriously doubt the CG would have a problem with this. Matter of fact, next time I see one, I'll ask. Statistically, I stand a 56 times greater chance of getting killed by lightning than dying in my boat by fire or explosion.

Last, the USCG blatantly admits that their R&Rs are grossly outdated at least with the fuel systems. Rules date back into the 70's before TBI existed and fuel injection was commonplace. (I wonder how manufacturers can even entertain the thought of fuel injected motors and maintain compliance?)

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Yes it is!! The block is the same... Same casting number, same part number... It's what goes inside that makes the difference... And you CAN NOT tell by looking at the outside...

Ergo... It may look the same, it may have the same part number... Doesn't mean it is the same..... Without stripping it and inspecting each part YOU CAN NOT TELL.... Same for an EFI system... Have you looked inside and inspected each and every part?

Chris...........

Right, the CASTING NUMBER on the BACK of the block (the part number that references the BLOCK, may have been the same, but the actual stamping (The part number that references the ENGINE), you're telling me THAT was the same?

Those numbers CAN be tricky, since some digits are duplicated every few years, but I seriously doubt that they were the same stampings.

What a childish comment.

Yes, how childish of me to expect ANYTHING based on Constitutional guarantees...

 

[tommays]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

The OEM EFI systems have passed a BURN test


When people say things like i will use this this hose because it i know it will not BURST it just shows they do not understand how and why the test is done


The point of the test is the amount of time the part will last in a fire and NOT cause a BIGGER fire

Many hoses will hold very high PSI but burn and fail very quick


I do not really expect to change anybody's mind because it is pretty clear that they do feel the need to work within the rules

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

It' obvious that boat manufacturers have the USCG seal of approval which of course would include all their components. The original question was about using a specific car part on a boat. The answer is that if it passes the USCG test, yes...not automatically no just because the part number doesn't have a suffix with an "M".
The USCG describes specifications for the entire fuel system. If any car part meets the requirements, it is blessed. The tests are often general, vague, outdated, and/or ridiculous.
e.g. the USCG states that the fuel hose (which I would worry about more than a water hose) must meet "performance requirements" according to SAE standards which measures permeation loss. Since pressure is not mentioned, I could theoretically get a hose to pass with a hole in it which of course is ridiculous. Much of USCG safety is based on SAE specs. Nothing is stated about how long it takes to burn, melt, explode, implode, rupture, combust or ignite. Having spent time on ships, fire is of paramount concern.
It appears that the USCG is concerned less about it than a few individuals here, justifiably so in reference to the previously posted statistics.
Do you really believe that the neoprene compound is actually different?
A USCG seal of approval means that the manufacturer has paid extra for the blessing...and of course they pass on the savings.
And you would actually worry about this if your boat were on fire?
I use marine parts on my boat, car parts on my cars, tractor parts on my tractors, furnace parts on my furnace, computer parts in my computers, and so on.
I also have two fire extinguishers on my boat - one at each end, one in my kitchen, three in my shop, one in my shed and one in my truck. (none in the hydroplane - sorry - I'll abandon ship first!).
I know there are people out there that believe any and every the government says, but there is a point common sense should kick in.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

Amen. The fuel supply line on my boat would burn MUCH quicker than any fuel injection line.

I'm planning on using flared steel lines and fittings for my system (pressure side, anyway). As well as the basic things like oil pressure shutoff, etc. It takes a REALLY long time to burn through steel lines. By that point, I will have either extinguished any fire, or long since jumped ship.

If my boat ends up blowing up, it would have done it either way, stamp or not.

And this fear-mongering that your entire insurance policy will be null and void if you ever put anything near your boat that's not stamped, is pretty silly, if not downright deceptive.

The insurance company would have to demonstrate that the part in question CONTRIBUTED to the accident.

So if you put a non-stamped distributor on your boat, and run across someone's bow, they're not going to be able to reject the claim based on the distributor!

If that were the case, all of those cars we see driving around with straight pipes, or mirror tint wouldn't be covered by their insurance. After all, mirror tint is "illegal", right?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

You know if you never have a problem, then it won't be a problem.

The boat cops usually only look for flame arresters, SAE J1171 alternators/starters and bilge blowers, etc

The Coast Guard admits from http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/boatbuilder/index.htm

The posted information is for manufacturers of recreational boats who must comply with the applicable regulations. Depending upon boat type, engine, length, usage, etc., a regulation (and corresponding guide) may, or may not, be applicable.​

While we encourage recreational boat owners to use the information for their benefit, compliance with the regulations is the responsibility of the boat manufacturers.​

Potential manufacturers, or importers, of recreational boats must contact the USCG, Boating Safety Division, Recreational Boating Product Assurance Division at 202-372-1073 and request a Manufacturers Identification Code (MIC) form.​

If your installation or modification catches fire and severely burns or kills someone, the bloodsucking lawyers WILL determine if there was non approved components in your boat.

If they proved that the boat owner bought the parts and installed them, the court would determine that it was negligent and the boat owner would lose the case.

Yes, I know anyone can sue anyone else, but why give them the case on a platter?

 

[mthieme]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

I'm planning on using flared steel lines and fittings for my system (pressure side, anyway).

U.,
Dunno what climate or water you're in, steel is a huge issue in my area and to be avoided generally when possible.
My line is malleable copper.
Aluminum tubing is also available.
Just a thought/option for you to consider.

oops, remember USCG R&R "Metallic fuel lines are relatively rigid and need protection from vibration". and "a flexible portion of fuel line is required to connect the metallic fuel line that is attached to the boat to the engine connection."

 

[Uraijit]

Re: what makes a tbi from a truck different then a marine setup?

That's STAINLESS steel...

I live in the desert, so rust isn't much of an issue anyway, but stainless is the plan.

Copper isn't a bad idea either.