Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

[tomatolord]

I have reading about the hydrogen economy for a long time. Just could not put my finger on exactly what was wrong with it.<br /><br />Distribution issues - yeah ok...<br /><br />After reading that book - beyond oil - the guy is a geologist/chemist - he hit the nail right on the head.<br /><br />To create hydrogen from water - very efficient 98% - it takes betwen 1.7 to 2 volts to create hydrogen. <br /><br />If you take hydrogen and create electricity that same hydrogen amount only makes .7 volts.<br /><br />That is a HUGE energy gap to overcome.<br /><br />So the idea of a car sitting at home to create home energy is just now stupid.<br /><br />Now I still feal that the real use of hydrogen is as a storage battery, create the hydrogen in remote sites (hydro, thermal, solar etc) then pipe the hydro to where you need it.<br /><br />Any way it is a good book on the energy sources in the world, shale oil, sand oil etc.<br /><br />Tomatolord<br /><br />Oh he says that we reached the peak of oil production in 2006.

 

[DJ]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Oh he says that we reached the peak of oil production in 2006.<br />

I believe that. We haven't built a refinery in over 25 years.<br /><br />Yes, it's true. It takes more power to make hydrogen than the hydrogen creates. Unless, free energy is harnessed-solar, geothermal.<br /><br />I have driven a hydrogen fuel cell car. It drove very well.

 

[dolluper]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

The 300 mile an hour one DJ????? 170,000 grand base price

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

OH the other about hydrogen cars is that the fuel cell produces a steady stream of energy - when you step on the "gas" so to speak - the fuel drops in effeciency by 40% and then thats it. <br /><br />I guess you could have a series of batteries to boost the performance.<br /><br />Tomatolord

 

[DJ]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Not that one. A hydrogen fuel cell electric hybrid.<br /><br />It drove just like any other hybrid.

 

[Chunder06]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Tomatolord google "woodgas" or "gengas" they produce hydrogen and methane. You can build one at home to heat a house or power a car.

 

[QC]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Yes, tomato, the Hydrogen economy is mostly hype today. We say in the Natural Gas world "Hydrogen, the fuel of the future and it always will be". Not completely fair, but a decent slogan just the same . . . <br /><br />

Originally posted by tomatolord:<br /> Now I still feel that the real use of hydrogen is as a storage battery, create the hydrogen in remote sites (hydro, thermal, solar etc) then pipe the hydro to where you need it.<br />

A couple of problems with this, but it is often referred to. The network of pipelines in this country for oil and especially natural gas is a huge and very valuable infrastructure resource. To duplicate with any decent coverage is a monstrous task, not impossible, but a huge undertaking. What always plagues the alternative fuel industry is this base infrastructure. Who builds it and, do you build it before the vehicles are available? After? Well obviously you can't build the fueling infrastructure after the vehicles are built, but the opposite requires investment with no return until the Automotive suppliers react to the new fuel supply. A legitimate "chicken and egg" issue. We fight it every day with Natural Gas and that infrastructure already exists . . . <br /><br />The second issue is opportunity cost. If the bucks to procure that same huge spread of land and pipeline network was invested into additional refining capacity for example, the return might be much better. Or if the energy needs to generate the hydrogen was simply sold on the open market instead of used to develop the hydrogen, well . . . you see the issue.

 

[rwise]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

on the news a week or so ago, they were saying that it has been predicted that there will be no oil left in 30 to 50 years anywhere on the planet! (not sure I am ready to beleave that) So we may not have a real choise about wheather we use Hydrogen or the liquid gas we use now. just a thought,,,,

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

I am still waiting for the Mr Fusion I saw in a movie. <br /><br />Hydrogen is a really dumb idea. Only benifit is environment, but there are ways to make hydrocarbons nearly as clean.<br /><br />We can easily grow/make our own hydrocarbons. Anything that decomposes makes fuel with the help of bugs and sunlight. No energy input required.<br /><br />Ken

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Oh there is plenty of "oil" <br /><br />You just have to define the word "oil"<br /><br />there is plenty - 300-400 years of each<br />Shale oil<br />coal oil<br />sand oil<br />crop oil<br /><br />All of these oils are "trapped" and must go through an additional process to release them from their holding sources.<br /><br />What we are running low on is stick a pipe in the ground and convert to gasoline oil. This is the "cheap" stuff.<br /><br />All this means is gasoline prices will climb to the point where these conversions will be economical for the producers to produce oil at.<br /><br />Notice I put crops in there, because I do feel that biotech fuels can be engineered to be cost effective.<br /><br />As the price of "oil" goes up other fuel sources come in to play - so the next 50 years will be interesting indeed.<br /><br />Tomatolord

 

[bandit86]

Re: Update on hydrogen - beyond oil a book on hubbard peak

Originally posted by tomatolord:<br /><br />To create hydrogen from water - very efficient 98% - it takes betwen 1.7 to 2 volts to create hydrogen. <br /><br />If you take hydrogen and create electricity that same hydrogen amount only makes .7 volts.<br /><br />That is a HUGE energy gap to overcome.<br /><br />So the idea of a car sitting at home to create home energy is just now stupid.<br />

Voltage is nothing without current, as no power is exerted. it is just a potential difference. A certain amount of power is needed to conver water to hydrogen or power developed turning hydrogen to electricity.