The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

[JB]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

You make a sound argument, OldMercs. Maybe he is a suicide bomber committing suicide of his nation and religion. I just don't think so.

Are there enough virgins in heaven to go around?

PW2, you've been reading too many blogs of distortion that try to put words in my President's mouth:

* Nuclear threat is not the same thing as WMD threat. Most of the world believed the WMD threat.
* GW did not say that Iraq was connected with 9/11. But terror? Damn right. Saddam was offering $25 big ones in bounty to survivors of suicide bombers. Would you call that a connection?
* GW did not say Iraq would be quick or cheap.
* GW has not said bombing Iran would be quick or cheap. In fact he has not said anything about bombing Iran at all. He has said that diplomacy is the solution to Iran.

 

[PW2]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

You make a sound argument, OldMercs. Maybe he is a suicide bomber committing suicide of his nation and religion. I just don't think so.

Are there enough virgins in heaven to go around?

PW2, you've been reading too many blogs of distortion that try to put words in my President's mouth:

* Nuclear threat is not the same thing as WMD threat. Most of the world believed the WMD threat.
* GW did not say that Iraq was connected with 9/11. But terror? Damn right. Saddam was offering $25 big ones in bounty to survivors of suicide bombers. Would you call that a connection?
* GW did not say Iraq would be quick or cheap.
* GW has not said bombing Iran would be quick or cheap. In fact he has not said anything about bombing Iran at all. He has said that diplomacy is the solution to Iran.

His administraion clearly sold this war in part on the basis of fear of a mushroom cloud. Are you disputing this?

His admnistration directly implied a connection to 9/11 to the point where most of the country agreed. Are you disputing this as well? There is no disputing Saddam was a bad guy. But the people who attacked on 9/11 were alQaida, and Saddam was not backing alQaida.

His administration (Paul Wolfowitz and others) testified to Congress that oil revenue would pay for this war...Larry Lindsay was fired because of suggesting that the war could cost $200 billion So quickly you forget the "Mission Accomplished" banner.

And I do agree that Bush has said diplomacy is the answer...and I hear the drumbeats from the neo-cons as evidenced by this thread calling for bombing of Iran, and the carrier groups being put in place. I hope you are correct, and he doesn't plan on bombing Iran, but once the planes leave the carrier, it's too late for debate. I'd rather have the debate before the bombs are dropped.

As far as reading blogs go, which ones are you referring to? FTR, I rarely frequent blogs, and the ones I do tend to be on the right

 

[PW2]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Sounds like a "YABUT" to me, PW2.

As in, "Yabut just because that is myth doesn't mean these others are myths, too."

Right on, PW2, but it doesn't mean those others are not left created fantasy, either.

I don't have a clue what you are saying, JB.

All I know for sure is that I fear bombing Iran would lead to catastrophic consequences.

While I agree Iran is a potential and current problem, there are better ways to deal with it than bombing.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

His administraion clearly sold this war in part on the basis of fear of a mushroom cloud. Are you disputing this?

His admnistration directly implied a connection to 9/11 to the point where most of the country agreed. Are you disputing this as well? There is no disputing Saddam was a bad guy. But the people who attacked on 9/11 were alQaida, and Saddam was not backing alQaida.

His administration (Paul Wolfowitz and others) testified to Congress that oil revenue would pay for this war...Larry Lindsay was fired because of suggesting that the war could cost $200 billion So quickly you forget the "Mission Accomplished" banner.

And I do agree that Bush has said diplomacy is the answer...and I hear the drumbeats from the neo-cons as evidenced by this thread calling for bombing of Iran, and the carrier groups being put in place. I hope you are correct, and he doesn't plan on bombing Iran, but once the planes leave the carrier, it's too late for debate. I'd rather have the debate before the bombs are dropped.

As far as reading blogs go, which ones are you referring to? FTR, I rarely frequent blogs, and the ones I do tend to be on the right

I'm sorry, but a mushroom cloud was sold to the people? Don't think so. What do you consider a WMD pw?

I still fail to see the 9-11 connection that was made by the President. You say it a lot, so maybe now you believe it. Keep telling yourself someting and eventually you'll believe it to be true, even if it's not the truth.

How much oil has helped pay for the war, do you have numbers, or are you just talking the talk without being able to walk the walk?

So you want to wait until a total wack job has a nuke? Then when they start blackmailing the world with it, I bet your the first to blame President Bush for letting them get it. Hasn't the EU and your precious UN tried talking to him? Tha't worked out real well, hasn't it?

I think your the one that needs to pull thier head out of the sand and put the kool-aid down for awhile.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

JB
they make some new meds to combat memory loss and alzheimers.
most the rest of the world knew he did not have nukes nor a viable bioweapons project due to several facts, one was the combination of the israeli airstrike in the late 80's and the other was the US persion gulf war and the resultant sanctions.
that and the US/UK monitor electrical generation and transmission. the one thing that any WMD project requires is a very large amount of electricity. this can and is monitored from various locations.
to operate and expand any WMD project requires the work of considerable amounts of mid-level technical persons.
most fled Iraq in 92-95 time frame leaving saddam with floor sweepers and the upper levels that would have been shot had they tried to flee.
yes Rumsfeld came in with a 3 month war,less than 100 billion and gas at 1 dollar a gallon when it was over.
that I have on VCR someplace around here.
I would expect someone with JB's age and wisdom that lived through the late 50's,60's,70's and 80's would remember a tad more details.
and your 25millon bounty is such a joke its not even laughable. saudi arabia spends over 250 billion a year on "terror" support and according to you and some others are our bestest buds.
so its not revisionist history,its what I lived through,looked at and spent a lot of time studying while in the USN from 88-95.
the US has toppled many many democratic govt's and installed terrible dictators in the past 40 years or so, we have and continue to train and arm various terror groups around the world. the current arming of fatah so they can fight hamas,yea like thats gonna happen. is a good example.
but its not in the book on how to win friends and defeat enimies.
if you dig about the CIA and MI6 and the pakistani archives you will see how alqueada as we know it is rather a mythical thing. its mostly for the west to try to quantify an enemy.
its mostly a US/UK trained group of at least 15 factions with a most the time common goal.
the funding went from the CIA and was laundered through pakistan to aid Bin Ladin and some others in the gurrila fight against the USSR in afghanistan.
or has everyone forgotten that conflict?
if you check the CIA worldfact book and over look some of the errors/omissions seems Iran has a few folks of conscription age.
seems the russians have sold them some nice surface to air stuff as well.
while I have no worry our military could take them I worry big time the current administration will seriously underestimate an enemy,again.
we did it in serbia and lost a few planes,an F-117 was among them that currently resides in the USSR.
as far as the google earth thing? ya'll reckon them sand jocks aint thought of that or are they still working with the abbacas ?
so no I am not revising history,not even with the comments about who declared war on who in WWII.
the Iraqi scuds were mostly duds and we still only had an actual sucess rate with the patriot system of about 65% even though,if you remember, the press was claiming over 90%.
as a search/track weapons specialist I got the story by mid 91 that it wasnt working as planned as why.
they say its fixed now but who knows.
one firm thing I can tell you about whiz/bang weapons. to often they fail to go whiz or bang or both.
nothing like CIC giving mount 21 batteries released and ya hit the button and the towed target goes away,in the distance.
not long after that you get to try to explain to a lot of folks why there was no smoke and sound.
so no JB I am not reviseing history, I am just looking at it in a logical objective way.
kinda like this war was not FOR oil. look at who is getting ready to take over 70% of Iraqi oil if the Iraqis are dumb enough to sign.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Rod, I am so sorry that you make stuff up to prove your point. Just so you'll know, Germany said Saddam had WMD's. So did France. For that matter, Clinton said it too.

Not to mention he'd already used them on his own people, the Kurds in the north. Why are you in such denial?

Looking into the past is bad? Don't like my comparison of going after Saddam like our going after Germany in WW2? Well then tell your democratic friends to stop comparing the Iraq war to something else well in our past, Vietnam.

As for the individual who posted the thing about the Iranian ballistic missile, that's still a moot point. A missile is just that, a missile. You have to put a nuclear tip on it before it becomes a real danger. That's what we're trying to prevent. I know I'd heard of Iran test firing one or having or testing one to some degree, but who cares? Unless he has something to deliver I really don't care, and I don't believe Bush does either. Russia or China can supply the missile, but the warhead is what we're concerned about.

War for oil huh? Well, lets say it was. What do you drive? I know I have to drive a scooter that gets 75mpg because the price of a gallon of gas surpassed 3 bucks. Thank God it went down to 2 a gallon so at least on the coldest nights I can take my truck. I don't want to pay 3 bucks a gallon. The survival of our country depends on oil, whether or not you want to admit it. Fighting for oil to ensure you're country's survival is no different than fighting an invading army to ensure it's survival. We are paying top dollar for the oil, we are only ensuring the pipe's valve stays open on the one labeled "To the USA". I have no problem with that because having no oil will bring us to our knees as fast as a nuclear explosion.

Rod, you very clearly can't see the forest for the trees. If Clinton says it, its ok. Bush, nah. Screw Bush.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

You make a sound argument, OldMercs. Maybe he is a suicide bomber committing suicide of his nation and religion. I just don't think so.

Are there enough virgins in heaven to go around?

PW2, you've been reading too many blogs of distortion that try to put words in my President's mouth:

* Nuclear threat is not the same thing as WMD threat. Most of the world believed the WMD threat.
* GW did not say that Iraq was connected with 9/11. But terror? Damn right. Saddam was offering $25 big ones in bounty to survivors of suicide bombers. Would you call that a connection?
* GW did not say Iraq would be quick or cheap.
* GW has not said bombing Iran would be quick or cheap. In fact he has not said anything about bombing Iran at all. He has said that diplomacy is the solution to Iran.

Hey JB, I sure hope your hunch or read on IRAN is correct, but through out history when a political leader tells his population in no uncertian terms that he plans to wipe out the "Little Satan" and then he plans to tackle the "Great Satan" it is not a good sign. He then talks in religious "end of times" terms to his own people of the same faith and sends a letter urging conversion to his "unbeliever enemy"; that to me: looks very bad, and history tells us that type of rhetoric has lead to problems in the past when leaders of a country openly act that way. I doubt George Bush will have the courage to take this guy on, and if he does there are so many people who will fight him from within, it just looks like we will have to find out if you are right, (and I very much hope you are). Israel may do the job, but as I said Persians are not Arabs. Alexander and the Mongus wupped em, but even the Romans did not dominate them. They are very tough, and the will of modern America to confront such an enemy is very suspect to me. Respectfully JR

 

[rodbolt]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

good to see you support a war for oil.
I dont make many comparisons to vietnam cause there are not many.

most folk only said it after months of arm twisting and data cherry picking, but then none were found.
you LOVE to harp on saddam used it on HIS OWN PEOPLE.
shows your total ignorance of the pre-WWI and WWII history of the reagion and how the borders were drawn.
its kinda like saying Custer massacred his own people at wounded knee.
sorry but you will have to look that battle up all on your own. hint: google: Custer wounded knee.

so China or Russia may give them a delivery system? maybe. but if they were going to do that I suspect they would sell the war head as well.
but as you say they are our friends,like the sauds and are as staunch and trustworthy as your hero,Maliki.
but no your in denial,the state of mind not the river in Egypt,there again you gotta look it up on your own.
saddam did gas the northern Kurds, and it was a terrible terrible thing.
in fact in the states,just like the bartenderthat allows a customer to get drunk then drive, WHOEVER supplied the chemical weapons is just as guilty.
what no comment?
waterinthefuel, I really hate to bust your bubble, but, a brief historical synopsis the rest you can look up.
back in the 80's the US and some other western states gave well sold, saddam the chemical weapons. as the weapons had never ever actually been tested we encoraged saddam to use them against the Israeli armed Iranians.
as saddams forces were technically backwards our CIA supplied the weather data and best theoretical airbust altitudes for deployment of said weapons.
then the CIA took careful notes .
in the meantime in the late 80's we started suppling arms to IRAN, remember the footnote in history about the IRAN/CONTRA thing?
so the CIA met with the kurds to the north that did not consider themselves Iraqis,thats why they called themselves KURDS.
anyway the CIA said if you raise up and take arms and harrass saddam from the north we will get your back.
they did,we did not, and they paid a very heavy price when their rewbellion was quelled.
all perfectly legal. thats why saddam was not tried for that crime.
would have been a big embarresment, but not a national security, issue.
as to what I drive
well sometimes I run my boat to work, only burns about 17 gallons round trip. 175 etec on an 18ft fish and ski. sometimes I run my 20ft shamrock with its 220HP 351CID ford detroit iron. most days I just drive my 06 4.0L ranger 4WD and beyatch about the 17 MPG.
I mean my 89 gran marqis got 20 MPG .

but its about 20 miles from here to wanchese by water and on a calm day I can do it in 30 mins including idling up the channel.
but if ya dont belive this is not a war for oil your smoking the wrong weeds.
this week the Iraqis are having their oil stolen, pure and simple. and it will lead to further violence sooner than later.
seems the US is pressureing maliki to sign over about 70% of the iraqis oil.
media is to busy with the "troop surge" to pick up on it.
think about it, the president has the authority to send as many as he wishes. why bother with congress now.
smoke screen baby.
Bush went up a notch

 

[Plainsman]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Is it sign over the oil, as in to give, or sell to American companies at market price rod? Big difference. You may want to google it and do some research on it.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

so far its to give western oil companies a 70% stake, means they get 70% and thats at the cost to actually pump it, not market price.
I will follow it rather close.
last year I busted the market for almost 100K
as long as you watch the idiots yak and can call your broker its not hard.
I made almost 15K off Chavez's speech in jan, only took 5 days. and whats funny I was in the jungle fishing .
like I say, I am probably more conservative than most the rest posting here. I also try to read and remember history as it tends to repeat itself.
if the Iraq oil law is signed by the puppet in iraq it will insure another rebellion, most likly in the next 3 years.
for the western oil companies its a total sweetheart deal, for the Iraqis its suky suky. for the american consumer its meaningless.
whats funny is if this cold snap in FL whacks a bunch of orange trees in the next few days I will clean up, I bought some commodities on oranges in south america. had to do it when I was in rio chico fishing and the CA orange crops took a whack.
sat phones and capitalism, aint it great ?

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Yes, Rodbolt, he used the WMD on his own people. He didn't use them pre-ww2, he used them in the 80's, when Iraq had been a state for a few decades. Just because they weren't of the same ethnic background as him, they were still his people. Quit making excuses for your partner, Saddam.

We don't gas California because they are democrat, and the ones in charge are republicans? No, we don't. We're all Americans, like they were all Iraqi's.

I'm glad you're doing good in the market. Thats about the only true American thing I've heard out of your mouth so far.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Rods a conservative. 8)

Hey I am thinking about some illegal investments in hog futures, I guess that makes me a liberal. d

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

No, that makes you a criminal...d

 

[rodbolt]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

hahaqhah
hahahaha
well I am thinking of starting a development on the coast here. I think I will name it"rough water"


poor water in the fuel
I think he needs to change his filters.

I guess if custer had waited a few years the sioux would have been "custers" people.

however waterinthe brain was notably silent about where saddam got the weapons,how did he learn how to use them and is the supplier of the agent as responsible as the user ?
I bet if I posted the first paragraph of the CIA world fact book on Iran waterinthefuel and most others could not find the blatent omission in 2 hours.
I got a 20 dollar bill on my desk says it wont happen.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

I couldn't agree more. I guess I should run for President! 8)

 

[JB]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

$25 big ones is $25,000, oh self appointed history professor. It was offered to families of suicide bombers by Saddam. It completely escapes me that you, with the flawless memory and ability to even remember stuff that never happened can't remember that. Maybe you need the meds you so courteously suggest.

By the way, Custer had been dead for 14-1/2 years (June 26, 1876) before the Wounded Knee massacre, and it was the Minneconjou Lakota of Bigfoot's band plus some refugee Hunkpapa Lakota who died there (December 29, 1890), not Custer's troops. Perhaps you are referring to the battle of the Little Bighorn (that bears no analogy to Saddam's behavior). Try Google, Mr. history expert.

Yes, PW2. I dispute that my President said that Iraq was connected to 9/11. I also dispute that he manufactured the (incorrect) intelligence about WMD that most of the world believed. Saddam manufactured that intelligence in an attempt to deceive and intimidate us. Saddam was very successful with that.

My comment about myths was your defense of rodbolt's claim that the whole world "knew" that Iraq had no WMD. That is a myth. Your defense was a "yabut" about a bunch of other things you believe (that were irrelevant to that issue), but not about that one.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

JB got me, however thats like the 5th time I used that analogy
aint it great.
no I did not forget the palty sum saddam offered, but ya gotta admit, or at least acknolege it pales with the over 250 BILLION per year our saudi buddis spend.
saddam was a piker, a wannabe on the world stage.
history will prove it but many will die between then and then.
but no saddam was a pitiful man and simply a piker onthe world stage.
but even the man charged in the wounded Knee inciudent was later exhonerated.
heck all he did was kill some injuns.
injuns,jarakis,sudanese who cares its all the same.
aint it.
whats funny is how many times I got away with it.
but JB ya gotta admit untril ya googled it I had a good run going.
goes to show ya not to trust all that is written and go check some fact.
thats why I spend some time at the library as well.
but it does make a good analogy.
maybe a better one would be sherman killeds his own people in his march to thje sea.
and even the mighty JB has to admit shermans march to the sea was strictly a war against civilians as he had no real military targets.
so now that I am exposed I will have to change analogies.
I am just suprised I got away with it so long
but either way even the mighty JB wont answer the basic questions.
1 were the kurds actually saddams people?
2 did the US encorage the kurds,during the iran/iraq war to rebell against iraq.
3 did the kurds do it
4 did we leave them hanging like a mountaurd.(sp)
5 did the US supply the chemical weapons and the training on how they were best dispesred
come on JB help my fuzzy memory.
you see I was wrong on Custer. prove me wrong yet again.
its a learning thing.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Very interesting, he finally admits he was making stuff up when the moderator called him on it. Thanks, JB.

We gave Saddam the weapons because he was at war with....hold your horses.....IRAN!! Yep, he was the lesser of two evils. The Iran hostage crisis was still fresh in our minds, so we were willing to help anybody fight Iran. That's why we gave him the weapons, bolthole.

It's a well known fact that Clinton sold the Chinese the technology to make the missile that shot down the satallite last week. You were awfully quiet on that one rod. Read this article, although I know you won't, because unlike you, I can post facts and back them up. LOL Not make stuff up and get called on it by the moderator. God that was funny.....

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml

I know you won't read the article, so I'll post a quote from it right here for ya....

You better pray China calms down or I'll be on you like flies on shyt asking about your buddy.

You can also read this article, which is MUCH more daming.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/9/29/25139.shtml

A quote from it:

Newly declassified documents show that President Bill Clinton personally approved the transfer to China of advanced space technology that can be used for nuclear combat.

The documents show that in 1996 Clinton approved the export of radiation hardened chip sets to China. The specialized chips are necessary for fighting a nuclear war.


Chinese Army Gets U.S. Missile Technology for Money

A newly released document from the U.S. State Department reveals that the most successful Chinese espionage operation in recent history occurred during the Clinton administration.

The document accuses Hughes Space and Communications Company of violating U.S. national security 123 times by knowingly sending detailed missile and space technology directly to the Chinese army.

 

[JB]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Actually, rodbolt, that is the first time I even noticed the Custer analogy. I didn't have to google it. The long war for the Black Hills is one of my favorite topics.

Also, I was quite sure you were thinking of the Little Bighorn. I just accepted the golden opportunity to rag on you a bit.

Oh, and your questions:
No, yes, yes, yes and yes. I don't think I have claimed otherwise on any of those and I won't accept credit or blame for claims made by others.

 

[PW2]

Re: The time has come...bomb Iran's nuke facilities!

Quote>
$25 big ones is $25,000, oh self appointed history professor. It was offered to families of suicide bombers by Saddam. It completely escapes me that you, with the flawless memory and ability to even remember stuff that never happened can't remember that. Maybe you need the meds you so courteously suggest.
Quote off>

Now that is an irrelevant statement if I ever heard one. While it may be true, and evil, it had nothing to do with the people that attacked us on 9/11.

You may think the US role in the world is to eliminate "Evil", but if so, we've got one heck of a lot of work to do all over the world. Certainly, while it may serve as an excuse to attack Iraq, it clearly was not a justifiable reason to do so.

And revisionist history? Clearly your hero Bush must be held to account for the statements of those in his administration. He may not have said that exactly, but many in his admin did, including Cheney, and Bush certainly did not diavow or clarify their statements