polyester resin ?

twkjr 1250

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 6, 2009
Messages
177
i,am soaking my new transom with poly and acetone 50/50 . need to know do you add hardener when doing this . my next coat will be 75/25 then poly straight . then will sandwitch together with mat inbetween. then mat to transom ,24 oz. biaxle with over hang for tabbing over the whole transom set in peanut butter
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: polyester resin ?

FYI, soaking poly resin into the wood will coat it well, but without some type of fiber reinforcement (mat or chopped fibers) mixed in the poly will crack if the wood flexes or swells. That lets water in.

Also the poly itself is somewhat porous, usually it needs gelcoat for protection to keep water from getting through it.

I'd suggest either coating your transom with unthinned poly resin and light mat, or else using something else for a coating. Poly is good at many things, but being a paint isn't really one of them.

Erik
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: polyester resin ?

Thinning resin....well....sort of turns it into crap, read the sticky at the top of the page, it will have a section on thinning epoxy, it does the same thing to polyester.
 

Woodonglass

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
25,924
Re: polyester resin ?

Isn't that kinda like waterin down BEER !!!!:eek:


I'm just sayin...:D
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
1,907
Re: polyester resin ?

I'm not really sure why you thinned it?
 

saildan

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
264
Re: polyester resin ?

i,am soaking my new transom with poly and acetone 50/50 . need to know do you add hardener when doing this . my next coat will be 75/25 then poly straight . then will sandwitch together with mat inbetween. then mat to transom ,24 oz. biaxle with over hang for tabbing over the whole transom set in peanut butter

For wood sealing you'd probably be better off using pre-thinned CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer). As stated, thinning polyester resin (or epoxy) beyond a few percent in the field and with the wrong thinner (acetone) ruins it - and the piece you apply it to.


for reference
WEST System
Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance Manual

http://westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf

ResizedImage100125-A-Fiberglass-Boat-Repair.jpg
 

twkjr 1250

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
177
Re: polyester resin ?

its a done deal now , started this morning and now ready to laminate it to transom. I searched alot of threads for the soaking method, quite a few did it the same way . I'll just have to hope theirs is still holding up. I may regret not using stylene as thinner agent . Will take extra steps to insure it stays dry
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: polyester resin ?

You would want to mix with hardner first..then reduce. If you were going to do it this way.

YD.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: polyester resin ?

CPES and products like it are nothing more than highly thinned epoxy and suffer from the same degradation as other resins, only at a much higher cost since you're paying epoxy prices for the cheap thinners that are added.

While there are differences in the properties of resins thinned with difference products, it comes down to the fact that these products have been formulated to have their best physical properties when manufactured and used as is. They are not designed to have any type of thinners added, and when they are added, it significantly reduces almost every desirable property the resin had to begin with. The more you add, the more damage you do to the resin, at a 3 to 5% add you reduce the physical properties, at a 50/50 mix you pretty much have junk.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: polyester resin ?

Thinning with Acetone was the right way..not Styrene..or MEK..

As long as you kicked it with MEKP you will be fine :)

Dont worry about this science stuff .. We have been making our own Marine ply outa Crap ply way before they were born :) .. your on the right track.

Im sure your not rebuilding a Hatteras..

I have been building/restoring/repairing for ALONG time.. and have learned some tricks of the trade.. I have used prepreg/epoxy/vinyl and poly.. I have Many of times reduced resins . poly and epoxy ( paints and gel ) and NON have come back..

We are NOT in production..

IF you Did something that was not safe.. I would Tell you !!

Your not..

YD.
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: polyester resin ?

Back to the point of the post....

I read (on other websites) that the penetration difference between thinned and non-thinned resin is practically non-existent. Tests showed that regardless of how thin the resin is, it only penetrates the very top of the wood, not even through the first layer of the ply.

So from a strength point of view, thinning is buying nothing.

From a protection point of view, thinning is buying you nothing.

Apparently, applying resin straignt and un-thinned is the way to go, unless thinning is needed for application in cold weather, etc.

And as far as building up layers of ply to transom thickness by using poly resin and fiberglass may be convenient because you have it on hand, but from a structural point of view, poly resin is a very poor adhesive. The best product for gluing wood together is wood glue. Look for water proof professional carpenters glue. Even most construction adhesives (aka liquid nails, PL, etc) are waterproof and work well too.

Just something to keep in mind for future work.
 

twkjr 1250

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
177
Re: polyester resin ?

thats to funny . I was just staring at my new transom before i laminate it in . I realized there is glue inbetween each layer there for the epoxy , resin ,or what ever you use can only satuate the first layer. however i still feal strong that everybodys method is needed , it is up to the individual to study all post and figure what is best for them selves. For me the next time i would do full strenght after it laying in sun;then another coat. still i think mine will still be good to go. confrontations go to my new post these other post are to help solve and fix our boating needs.thankyou and have a very peaceful life.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: polyester resin ?

Dont worry about this science stuff .. We have been making our own Marine ply outa Crap ply way before they were born :) .. your on the right track.

Im sure your not rebuilding a Hatteras..

I have been building/restoring/repairing for ALONG time.. and have learned some tricks of the trade.. I have used prepreg/epoxy/vinyl and poly.. I have Many of times reduced resins . poly and epoxy ( paints and gel ) and NON have come back..

We are NOT in production..

IF you Did something that was not safe.. I would Tell you !!

Your not..

YD.


YD is pretty much the poster child for the "old skool" way of doing things with boats. He's done things his way for a long time, and if he says he never had problems come back I believe he's telling the truth.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems with the methods he suggests, it just means that he hasn't had problems come back to him. Take that for what you will.

Those of us that believe in this "science stuff" often have different opinions about what works and what doesn't. We know that boat building technology has changed over the years, and just because someone does something the same way for decades doesn't mean they're doing it right.

So keep in mind who's giving you advice, and use your head to determine what's good and what's not.

Even if you get it wrong, that's no guarantee that things will fail, and getting the build right doesn't mean the boat will last forever.

Whatever you do I hope your repair work turns out well.

Erik
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: polyester resin ?

YD is pretty much the poster child for the "old skool" way of doing things with boats. He's done things his way for a long time, and if he says he never had problems come back I believe he's telling the truth.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems with the methods he suggests, it just means that he hasn't had problems come back to him. Take that for what you will.

Those of us that believe in this "science stuff" often have different opinions about what works and what doesn't. We know that boat building technology has changed over the years, and just because someone does something the same way for decades doesn't mean they're doing it right.

So keep in mind who's giving you advice, and use your head to determine what's good and what's not.

Even if you get it wrong, that's no guarantee that things will fail, and getting the build right doesn't mean the boat will last forever.

Whatever you do I hope your repair work turns out well.

Erik

I agree that YD has given you good advice. I agree with most of YD's posts and methods. There is a lot to be said about experience vs new technology, and YD seems to have experience on his side.

The few times I disagree with YD I have not bothered to post a rebuttal, because they were minor issues, like stapling glass down over bends to prevent it form lifting leaving air bubbles. YD said no, I know from experience it worked very well for me using epoxy on 1708 glass. Is it worth arguing about? I don't think so. And certainly not cause to start calling names, etc.

There are many people here with lots of experience and all have their own particular cut on procedures and processes. The best advice I can give is to go with the advice that is common amongst 80-90 % of the experienced posters and ignore the advice that seems to be far different than the majority.

But then again, I do some things differently and often experiment (aka my Hard Top project) so my advice that reflects things I have done that worked great, may be different than the main stream. That is why I post my projects on shareaproject.com so you can see what I did, and know my advice was put into practice, and make your own conclusion. Take it as you may.

Hope this info was helpful.

Mark
 

GracieBell1

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
152
I restoring an '86 four winns liberator. In this process I have researched every aspect of the job. Experience is key for me. I did extensive tests using thinned poly with acetone. When applying this to plywood, concrete etc. as a sealer it DOES work very well. The thinned poly usses the wood as the substrate giving the same effect to strength as does glass. I have uased it in testes and nothing on the market seals like poly. When poly is used thinning then thinninf=g less and then thinning less again it will seal the first layer of ply very well. Water does not penitrate or discolor the wood like it does with many other sealers. It also workes great on concrete.

Also, the accetone carries the poly into the wood grain (heat the wood). Then the accetone will evaporate leaving a good poly base. Now it may reduce the properties a little(science) but this amount is minimal as I can show you sealed ply and concrete that has been waterproof for years.

I have noticed that people on this site will only give you the extreme of a scenario. Like using 1708 and using a thousand layers so it will work. Sure they are right but im not building a tank. My four winns has less than an 1/8 inch of chop strand only on the stringers and they held up for over 20 years. They only went bad becaus ethe boat sunk in the back and water saturated them. Peaple have used poly for 60 years and have had great succes with it. I don't like when people tell you info because they have an agenda or can only give you advice that works for them. Like saying you have to use epoxy for the job to be good or accetone will turn your ply into goop. FALSE, it may reduce the properties some but not enough to affect the overall product.

I sealed my transom with poly accetone mix. starting with 3:1 and going down to 1: after three layers. My transom is sealed tight and will accept glass and poly very nice when I glass it in. Poly is not a glue though I will agree with that all day. PL is the product for that.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: polyester resin ?

Not to argue the point, but I'm going to note a couple things about Gracie's posts:
When applying this to plywood, concrete etc. as a sealer it DOES work very well. The thinned poly usses the wood as the substrate giving the same effect to strength as does glass. I have uased it in testes and nothing on the market seals like poly. When poly is used thinning then thinninf=g less and then thinning less again it will seal the first layer of ply very well. Water does not penitrate or discolor the wood like it does with many other sealers. It also workes great on concrete.
Saying "it DOES work very well" is fine and good, but what do you mean? Are you saying that when you were done with painting it on, it was waterproof? Keep in mind that coating a board with wax will make it waterproof. How long will it stay that way, under what use?

If you're basing what you say on use in a boat over 20 years, does that mean it'll work in my boat the same? What if my boat is different? What if my boat gets frozen each winter, and used in the ocean instead of a lake?

Giving the "same effect to strength as does glass" is another question. Science aside, how did you test this? Even some garage tests with a press, a scale, and some sample wood pieces might not be good enough to really tell. If what you mean is "Once the poly was on it looked sealed and it was stiffer than the pre treated wood" you should probably just say that.

The thing most of us "sciency" types have an issue with is people trying to take their good examples farther than they should, and present them as gospel, or people who make the logical mistake that absense of evidence is evidence of absense (in other words "nobody said it didn't work, therefore it must work fine"). Think about that a minute and you'll see why it's wrong.

The other thing about those of us making "science" type comments.. usually we're not talking just from experience, but rather we can provide examples and references for what we say. Pointers to vendor docs or online examples, pics from our own work (which doesn't actually prove anything other than we did it that way once) or articles from trade magazines are more likely to be good info than "I did it that way" stories.

Which is more likely to be a good deal - a used car for sale from a guy who swears he's had no problems with the car for years, and you should believe him because he "knows cars because he used to work at a car dealership", or the little old man owner who doesn't "know cars" but followed the maintenance schedule religiously, and has the signed receipts to prove it?

It's usually pretty easy to debunk some of the more outrageous statements here. They're obvious. Someone saying something like "XXX is useless as a boat material" or "if you use XXX, your repair will fall apart and kill you" are obviously using exaggeration and hyperbole to get you to do things "their" way. Hopefully most people see through them.

It's kind of sad in some cases. People who do things a specific way because they learned it that way long ago will defend their belief to the death. After all, which option is more attractive to them? Continue promoting "their way" and enjoying the status of an "expert" OR admitting they've been doing it wrong, that they've done it wrong a long time, that they aren't as good at this as they think, and that a good part of their life was spent sharing BS advice they were too ignorant to correct?

Like anywhere else, on this board you have to think and not blindly accept any advice. Question the people telling you things, find out why they say what they say, and take that into account. Just because they're posting on the internet doesn't mean they know what the heck they're talking about.

Erik
 

drewpster

Commander
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
2,059
Re: polyester resin ?

As mom used to say,

I love all of you very much..............

Now you kids hush in there, or I'm gonna get a switch.

LOL:D

I roll/ tip my opinions.

enjoy
drewp
 

dude11

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
211
Re: polyester resin ?

I think I know what the deal is with thinning resin.I had the same thought.BEFORE,then after working with "the good stuff" resin,I saw that it was thin enough out of the can,that it didn't need cutting.That's my story and I'm sticking to it.:D
 

GracieBell1

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
152
Re: polyester resin ?

I am definetly NOT an expert in fiberglass. But I am an engineer and do know what extreme is when it comes to comments made here...The poly comment is extreme.The evidence is 60 years of poly boats. As for using it as a sealer then just look at results found on google or mine. I have pics and examples but common sence will say that if the poly seals wood then it will be sealed for some time unless it's properties are changed later donw the road. I sealed a wood deck in 2001 and it still beads and does not totaly discolor even after years of changing it or walking on it. That is far longer than other sealers. I have pics but have since sold the home. BUt if we know that poly will last 15-20 years and you can see and feel the seal that comes from using to seal the wood grain. Then I would think the conclusion I have made is pretty easy to realize. As for the wood being a substrate for the resin. What do you think glass is? It is to allow the poly molecules to bind to something, hence giving it the strength....Pretty easy to figure out....Of course glass will last longer than wood but that is not much of a factor if you also encapsulate the wood or encasulate it. Moisture will not enter for a very long time. The wood probably will seal better that glass because the grain is tighter that CSM. Thus not allowing as much moisture to pass through the polyester resin. Obviuosly anything done with polyester resin will eventualy let in moister. I think the goal is to prolong that as much as possible.
 
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